Dean Cotton: 0:44

Because the structure is very, very simple. It's literally based on three questions that we're going to ask students following an incident in its rawest form, would be saying to a student, What happened? How did that make you feel? And what can you do differently next time you feel that way?

Simon Currigan: 1:00

Welcome to the school behaviour secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're going to share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management behavioural special needs, whole school strategy and more all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear their latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the school behaviour secrets podcast. Hi there. My name is Simon Currigan and welcome to a freshly baked episode of school behaviour secrets. And I'm proud to say that this episode includes a special Easter egg. All you've got to do is find that...

Emma Shackleton: 1:53

Easter egg?

Simon Currigan: 1:54

That's the voice of my co host Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma.

Emma Shackleton: 1:57

Hi, Simon. So go on then easter egg. Explain yourself.

Simon Currigan: 2:01

It's a term from gaming. It's like a prize or a special bonus that's hidden away. And you'll only find it if you listen very, very carefully to the episode. But for those who do find it, you're in for a rare acoustic treat an absolute gem, I promise you.

Emma Shackleton: 2:21

Okay.

Simon Currigan: 2:22

But before we get too deeply into easter eggs, I wanted to open the show by asking you a quick question.

Emma Shackleton: 2:28

Go on then.

Simon Currigan: 2:29

What's the best piece of professional feedback you've ever received? You know, one that really helps you learn and grow?

Emma Shackleton: 2:35

Oh, wow. I've been really fortunate to work with some incredible people over the years. But one of my earliest feedback that really has come in handy was from one of my assessors when I was doing my teacher training. So it was from a Scottish lady called Morag. Hi Morag if you're listening, and she was supporting me with my final placement on my PGCE course, I was working in a four plus unit in a school in Leicester, so the equivalent of a reception aged class. And as a very energetic, loud and dynamic person, I tended to plan activities that really whipped up the children and got them excited about their learning. Anyway, after a bit of a disasterous lesson, Morag fed back with something along the lines of whenever you feel the tendency to move quickly, pause and go slowly instead, or something like that. It really was a bit of a Yoda teaching moments. And it felt really profound at the time. And many, many times over the years, those words have come to mind and helped me to be calm and intentional with my words and actions, rather than instinctively rushing in, which would be my natural tendency, I guess. I like this question. What about you, Simon? Can you think of a piece of really valuable feedback that you've been given, and how it shaped you?

Simon Currigan: 3:59

I was giving a lesson once I was been observed by member of senior management. And the lesson wasn't going well. The work wasn't pitched quite right. The kids weren't quite getting it, the kids were getting a bit frustrated. And I was getting a bit frustrated. But because I had someone in the room, I continued with the lesson, I kept sticking to the plan. And afterwards, this member of management took me to one side. And you know, when they given you your feedback, and they were talking about the things you were doing well, but the thing that stuck with me was the kind of constructive criticism that if the lessons not working, you need to change something just because you've written something down, even if there's someone watching you, actually, what they'll be more interested in seeing is that you've identified that the lesson isn't being successful, and just change, bring the kids down to the carpet, explain it a different way change the task, but respond to the kids learning. And that's something that stuck with me, actually. And I've used time and time again, even in front of Ofsted. And it's it's worked for me and

Emma Shackleton: 4:56

It's really important, isn't it? It's almost it stuck with me. like being given permission to follow your instincts.

Simon Currigan: 5:03

Yeah,

Emma Shackleton: 5:04

I think most of us can feel when something's not working. But it's been allowed to switch up and not feel that you have to be bound by what you've pre planned, I guess.

Simon Currigan: 5:14

Yeah, absolutely. And I asked because this week I'm going to be speaking to behaviour expert Dean cotton. And he's done some fascinating research into the subject of post incident learning so that's where following a behaviour instance say the child has an outburst or there's some verbal aggression towards another child or or whatever and then an adult follows up with a conversation that's supposed to help the student learn and grow that's post incident learning with the aim of the student being able to engage in a constructive behaviour in the future rather than a negative one, and he's been doing some research on what kind of conversation is more likely to result in a positive behaviour change and which conversations are less effective?

Emma Shackleton: 5:56

Ah, so it sounds like if you're teaching children who aren't learning and adapting their behaviour, and maybe stuck in cycles of negative behaviour, this is one for you. But listeners, before we share Simon's interview with Dean, I've got a quick favour to ask if you're finding our podcast useful or valuable, please could you leave us an honest rating and review on your podcast app, it'll take 30 seconds, and it signals to the algorithm to share this with new listeners just like you. And that means that we can help more teachers, school leaders and parents. And now here's Simon's interview with Dean cotton.

Simon Currigan: 6:36

Today, I'm really excited to welcome Dean Cotton to the show, Dean worked as a teacher for 15 years including in SEMH provision, where he trained staff in behaviour management, resulting in a remarkable 95% reduction in behaviour incidents and zero exclusions. Following the closure of the school in 2005. Dean completed a master's degree in teaching and learning becoming an author and speaker and founded positive behaviour strategies limited, who provide training and consultancy in behaviour management. He also founded behaviour smart, which is an incident recording system that has the specific aim of not just logging events, but actually reducing incidence and improving behaviour. Dan, welcome to the show.

Dean Cotton: 7:19

Thank you for having me.

Simon Currigan: 7:19

I think it's gonna be very interesting interview. And I think our listeners are going to be really curious to find out about how you've achieved these things and what the path was. So first of all, can you tell us a little about how you got into working with and supporting kids with SEMH needs

Dean Cotton: 7:34

Yes Well, first of all, I mean, I didn't do very well at school, left with no qualifications. I was really disappointed when my head teacher wrote on my leaving certificate that I was a nice lad, but I'll never get anywhere. And I sort of believe that as a 17 year old believing what the head teacher said. So I left school did a couple of dead end jobs and decided to start my own company, which was called Dean's Window Cleaning Services, we rub a little harder was our little catchphrase. And I went around cleaning windows, made some little cards posted them through people's letter boxes. And yes, I started my window cleaning round. After a while of doing that I was a little bit bored of the cleaning windows, especially in the rain. And I wanted to do what my dad did for a living which was he was a lorry driver. And I wanted to be a lorry driver, you know, that's social mobility. So I became a lorry driver. Part of my job was to deliver parcels to schools. And I delivered a parcel to a school in Sheffield called school called Rainhead school and the head teacher there must have seen something in me because the following day, I did some volunteer work at that school. And then with the help of that headteacher. Four days later, I packed my job in and started my NDB training at Sheffield college. So I did my NDB course, got a job working in a nursery and I worked in a nursery for six or seven years, and I really enjoyed it. But again, I just got a little bit bored and decided to do something a little bit different. So I retrained and got a job teaching in a school for children with social emotional behavioural difficulties.

Simon Currigan: 9:10

That's a real tale of two head teachers in terms of the way they looked at and nurture talent or didn't nurture that talent. Looking back on that, I guess both of those head teachers had a huge impact, one positive one negative on the way you sort of saw yourself and your career.

Dean Cotton: 9:25

Absolutely. I mean, the head teacher that you know, saw something in me and I did some volunteer work in his school and at lunchtime he asked me to go into his office and told me that all the staff wanted him to give me a job but he didn't have a job to give me and then he contacted Sheffield college that afternoon and that was on a Thursday I delivered the parcel on the Friday morning I was working in the school. And on Friday afternoon, I had an interview at Sheffield College, packed my job in Friday night and started on my own NEB course which was an absolutely amazing course two years full time course, looking at Child Development, child behaviour and support in young children and I absolutely loved it.

Simon Currigan: 10:09

How did you find teaching children with social emotional and mental health needs?

Dean Cotton: 10:13

I found it really hard in the beginning. But basically the reason for that is because we didn't really have much training, but I still get concerned these days with the quality of behaviour management training and people are having. And I was given some really basic training right at the very beginning, but it was just about building relationships with those children. So once I've built the relationships with those children and shared positive experiences with them, my job became a hell of a lot easier.

Simon Currigan: 10:41

We're going to talk today about the power of power incident learning. But before we go any deeper into that subject, can you describe what do you mean by post incident learning.

Dean Cotton: 10:51

So post incident learning is basically what it says on the tin. It's learning following an incident. So obviously, in a lot of our schools, children zones, we have issues with behaviour. And as a behaviour consultant, and a trainer travelling around lots of different services, I was amazed at about how many children are involved in incidents, and then quickly sent back to class or reintegrated into the service with no sort of follow up support. So post incident learning really is just a simple structure that are developed to ensure that following an incident the child feels supported, and both the child and the member of staff can actually learn from the incident and move on.

Simon Currigan: 11:34

It's interesting you say, both the child and the adult learn from what happened because often the focus on the follow up conversations after an incident are very much about what the child should have done right, what their targets were, what they can do better in the future.

Dean Cotton: 11:48

Yeah, I think that's really interesting, because a lot of children will say, Okay, well, I'll not do that again. But inevitably they do. Because if it was as easy as just having a quick conversation with them to say, you know, you'd went wrong there. And they said, Okay, then I'll not do it again. And that was it, then we wouldn't have any issues with behaviour, would we really,

Simon Currigan: 12:03

You and I would be out of a job?

Dean Cotton: 12:06

Absolutely.

Simon Currigan: 12:07

So you ran a really interesting piece of in school research that looked at the significant impact that different approaches to that post incident conversation can have, can you tell us what your research was, what it looks like, what you did, and then what you discovered?

Dean Cotton: 12:25

Yeah, I've actually run several studies in this area, and two of them have been quite significant. So the first study I did in this area, we developed a structure for post incident learning based on things like motivational dialogue, counselling, lifespace, interviews, cognitive behaviour, therapy, a whole range of different talking therapists. And then what we did, we simplified the structure to make it more accessible for everyone. So we took the key elements of those therapists, and just focused on those which was basically the experience that the individual had, how it made them feel, and what they could do next time they feel that way. And then what we did is we trained staff in that structure in a SEMH school, and the pupil referral unit, we put a system in place to make sure that whenever a child had been involved in an incident, the structure that we developed was followed, we got a very similar SEMH school and a very similar pupil referral unit, we told them to talk to children following an incident and try and give them as much support as they possibly could. And again, we put a system in place to make sure that that was carried out following every incident.

Simon Currigan: 13:36

So just to be clear, before we move on one set of schools is using a specific structure for that conversation that you've given them. And the other just being told us your best efforts.

Dean Cotton: 13:45

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And the services that were told just to use their best efforts actually saw very little change in behaviour. One of them saw a 10% reduction in behaviour incidents, but the other one actually saw a 10% increase in behaviour incidents, they said that a lot of their children didn't like them talking to them following an incident, which sort of suggests that they were doing it a little bit too soon, maybe, or maybe saying the wrong things. But the services that followed the structure, saw a huge reduction in behaviour incidents, one of them saw 45% reduction in behaviour incidents, and theres one saw 64% reduction in behaviour incidents by following the simple structure. So that was one piece of research we did. And the other piece of research we did we it's only a small scale study. But we actually got a school to replace their detention system with a post incident learning system. And that actually resulted in a 64.5% reduction in behaviour incidents over a three month period.

Simon Currigan: 14:46

That's massive, isn't it?

Dean Cotton: 14:47

Absolutely. It makes so much sense, though, you know, rather than you know, punishing a child for something that often they can't help or talking to them about it. And I don't think it's rocket science that talking to them about their incident is going to have a better outcome.

Simon Currigan: 15:02

And it's amazing when there's research out there like this, that some of the secondary schools to be fair, are still relying on detention as their main approach for discouraging kind of negative behaviour rather than going into the depth and complexity of it and looking for those causes. And having those conversations and when you see are the same kids signing up week after week to the same detentions if it's not worked after three, four or five weeks, then it's probably not going to work at all.

Dean Cotton: 15:27

Probably not. And there is actually very limited amount of research that says detentions do work. However, there is a wealth of research that says that they don't work and I think what we have to do though is look at what we mean by does something work you know, I'm sure A lot of your listeners may use strategies where, you know, they may reward children or put some consequences in place and say, Well, okay, that works because I see a change. But for me for something to work, it's got to have a long term positive impact. Of course, if I say to a child, you know, you do this, and I'll give you this, they'll do that. But what will the long term impact be? And that's the same with detention. So a lot of schools that I actually speak to say, they know the detensions don't work, but they just want something else. What else can we do instead of giving children detentions? It was quite interesting in that research as well, when we actually spoke to children about the effectiveness of the detensions. When we actually asked students do detentions work, a lot of them said, Yes, but when we asked students, would your behaviour be any different? If school didn't have detentions? They clearly said, No, my behaviour wouldn't be any different. So in one breath, they're saying the detensions do work. And then the other breath, saying they're dont? And obviously depends how we ask questions to children to the answers that we get,

Simon Currigan: 16:49

Most people do the right thing, because it's the right thing. Because it comes from their values and their ability to regulate their emotions and you know, be calm, and because they care about the impact of their actions on others, because they're in a physiological state where they're able to do that.

Dean Cotton: 17:01

Absolutely. And that comes from within post incident learning, it's focused on intrinsic motivation, doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do not because I'm gonna get something, I just want to do the right thing. The problem we've got is a lot of children that we work with, especially those experiencing social, emotional, mental health difficulties, find that really difficult. They don't know what the right thing is, often their anxieties get in the way of doing the right things.

Simon Currigan: 17:28

So just before we move on to the next step, I want to ask you about what it was about that conversation structure that was so powerful. So can you just remind us what that structure looks like? And perhaps give us an example? And then explain why it was working? What was it doing that the conversations in the other schools, were one sort of increase in one sort? Or decrease? Why was it making such an impactful difference?

Dean Cotton: 17:51

I think mainly because the structure is very, very simple. It's literally based on three questions that we're going to ask students following an incident in its rawest form would be saying to a student, what happened? How did that make you feel? And what can you do differently next time you feel that way? And that's because if you look at the therapists that we looked at, for example, you know, cognitive behaviour therapy is to do with experiences, feelings, and behaviours, and some of the rest of them. So while we did we looked at that and said, Well, okay, what happens if we would explore the experience, the feeling and the behaviour and nothing else? So to get the child to tell us what the experience was, we literally say what happened, and we get them to tell us what happened from their perspective. Now, often, you know, sometimes children may be defensive at this point, and may not tell you the true for they might not know what happened. And sometimes that's given us an indicator that perhaps we're trying to do this a little bit too soon. In which case, we would back off and continue again at a later time, a lot of the post incident learning that I did in practice involved me sitting down next to a child at lunchtime and eating my dinner, talking about how runny the baked beans were and then just naturally entering into saying what happened this morning? it's not a case that we you know, we get the child in our office opposite our desk, and say, right, tell me what happened. And we get a form out that we're going to fill in, it's just a natural conversation. So the first question is what happened? Following that. How did that make you feel? And this gives us a really good opportunity to explore and improve emotional intelligence. So we might share with the student how we might feel if that happened to us. And once we've got the feelings out there, the next question, what can you do the next time you feel that way? Now, a lot of people get mixed up with this, and a lot of children do and all our staff do as well, to be fair, they'll say something like, You know what happened? And the student might say, well, he pulled a face at me. So I kicked him. Okay, how did that make you feel when he pulled the face at you? And the student might say, angry, so we'd follow that up and just bring it all together by saying, okay, so he pulled a face at you that made you feel angry. What can you do the next time you feel angry? And a lot of people miss that little cue and they say things like, what can you do the next time that happens? So the student might say, Well, the next time I feel angry, I'll punch him in the face. But we're not talking about what can you do the next time that individual pulls a face at you? We're talking about what can you do the next time you feel that way? And I'm sure you know, your listeners know themselves that we don't respond to situations we respond to our feelings during that situation. So if you've had a good day, and a student says something offensive to you, you're going to handle that in a completely different way. If you've had a bad Day, and the student says something offensive to you. It's not about the actual experience. It's about the feeling that drove that behaviour. So simply the three questions are what happened? How did it make you feel? What can you do differently next time you feel that way? And the reason that was so powerful and had such a profound effect is literally down to consistency. Obviously, if I'm a student, and I'm having a conversation with a teacher, and there's no structure to that conversation, then the outcomes could be very, very different. But in this case, all the staff were asking the same three questions. So it didn't matter which member of staff it was, that was asking the questions, the outcomes were always the

Simon Currigan: 21:29

What was the impact then on the children's same. lives as a result of going through this process, learning about their feelings and emotions? For one, obviously, they're not in detention so much. But, you know, let's think bigger than that. What was the impact on them and the impact on the adults working with them?

Dean Cotton: 21:45

It was a huge impact. I mean, first of all, and most obviously, was relationships were improved. You know, obviously, if I'm a member of staff working in a school, say, for example, where we've got a detentions policy, all I have to do is say to that student, when you've got detention, and you know, maybe a tick a box on a form somewhere does they have given the child a detention, I don't really have to do much more after that. But this involves the member of staff actually talking to the child. And a lot of people say at this point, we haven't got the time to do that. And I appreciate that. But this is actually time saving in the long run, because we get improved behaviour, which is obviously another outcome that's really important that behaviour is improved. It can also help staff identify triggers and understand that child a bit more makes people feel valued, helps them learn about a way. But most importantly, really, you know, we have got some studies that we've looked at that show that talking to somebody in this way with empathy actually improves their mental health and improves behaviour. So the impact on the child and the member of staff is huge.

Simon Currigan: 22:52

You've developed a recording approach that I touched on the introduction that helps teaching staff respond more effectively to the behaviour of pupils with high needs, and reduce incidents and outbursts. As a result. Can you tell us about your processing of system and how it works?

Dean Cotton: 23:09

Absolutely. It came from my work as a behaviour consultant, and trainer visiting different schools and looking at how they record incidents. And I became really concerned about the answers that most people gave when I asked them, Why do you record incidents, and those people said, in case there's an allegation or so we've got a record of it. And although that is one reason is very important reason, there's got to be more to it than that, because, you know, staff are expected to write incident reports on a whole range of different things. And if the only reason we're writing these incident reports is in case there's an allegation, I feel that's a huge waste of time. So three years ago, I started behaviour smart limited. And the first two years of behaviour smart was researching the idea and perfecting the product. It's an idea that I had back in 2002, when I created a very crude version of it. So basically, what happens is following an incident staff complete an incident report using the system but the questions that the software ask you are very carefully constructed to cover all the key areas that might be needed in the event of an allegation. But more importantly, the system makes staff reflect on the incident and consider alternative options for next time. So the software takes the information that the staff have inputted into the system, and it puts them on to a very, very effective behaviour plan. It's based on the answers that have been given. There's also a section on there for post incident learning so we can record that. And there's also access to graphs and charts and analytic systems, so we can analyse behaviour in a bit more detail. Some of our users have seen huge reductions in behaviour incidents. I mean, one school reported recently an 83% reduction in behaviour incidents and a much calmer school. So it takes an incident recording system and uses it to improve behaviour. You know, we're that confident now that it improves behaviour that if people use it, and they don't see an improvement in behaviour, we just give them the money back. We've never had to yet

Simon Currigan: 25:11

so I'm hearing two really interesting key planks in that system for me, especially that sort of jump out immediately. And the first of those is having a process the teachers gonna have to type of pin incidents anyway. But it's asking questions in a way that makes the teacher reflect on how they responded to the incident. Is that correct?

Dean Cotton: 25:31

Yeah, absolutely. At the moment, if people write incident reports, you know, often people write on blank pieces of paper or they fill in a form with a huge area for them to write loads of stuff. Those things are really difficult to analyse and sometimes people write the wrong things. So this asks really carefully structured questions, which forced the member of staff into reflecting, which again, improves behaviour, because the next time there's an incident, they've already gone through that thought process.

Simon Currigan: 26:00

And then your system takes this information, and it analyses it. And it produces a plan for adults to follow or things to do, and things to avoid doing. And that's updated over time, as new information comes in. It's dynamic, it's ever evolving.

Dean Cotton: 26:14

Yeah, it's updated instantly, once the member of staff has written an incident report, and they submit that the information is automatically taken over to the behaviour plan, which can be edited. And we can add more information to that as time goes on. We also log positive behaviour and lower level behaviours that don't require an incident report. And those are also transferred over to the behaviour plan if we wish, and we can edit it continuously.

Simon Currigan: 26:40

That's fascinating, isn't it, because the normal approach is to write some sort of formal plan. And then it goes in a folder for six months before people look at it again. And this is reacting in real time to changes in the child's behaviour and needs.

Dean Cotton: 26:52

Yeah, and that was one of my issues that I were having when I was going out as a consultant. And I was looking at individual children and how they behave, and our staff can help them, I asked if I can see copies of their behaviour plans, which they inevitably show me. And then I look at the incident reports, and the two don't match a very rarely do we get a good behaviour plan that matches the incident report. We have behaviour plans that said when this child does, this is what we need to do. And then we had incident reports which show clearly, we weren't doing the things that were written on to the behaviour plan.

Simon Currigan: 27:24

Dean, if you're a teacher, a school leader, listening to this podcast, what's the first step you can take today to find out about post incident learning and start using these approaches that we've talked about today systematically in your school?

Dean Cotton: 27:38

Well, I've got a website, PBS, training.co. UK, and if you go on there, and I will allow all your listeners to access the members area on there, where you can get access to a lot of the research that are row and also some helpful resources that staff can use for post incident learning can be very difficult in schools where children have got severe communication problems, for example. So there are some resources on there to help you and behaviour smart, you can go onto the behaviour, smart website www. behavioursmart.co.uk and there's a lot of information on behaviour smart website there, or just get in touch with me. Ask me some questions. I'm available on all the social media platforms. I'm quite happy to help.

Simon Currigan: 28:19

And I'll drop direct links to those websites in the show description. Dean, we asked this of all of our guests, who is the key figure that's influenced you? Or what is the key book that you've read? That's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with children?

Dean Cotton: 28:35

Well, I don't know whether I'm allowed to do this. But I feel I have to, I need to talk to you about I think the first key figure is actually someone called Malcolm Stein, who you will have never heard of probably, but he's the head teacher that saw something in me and got me to go on to that first course and take my first step working in education. So I think it'd be unfair not to mention him. And secondly, one of the most important people key figure, I think is for me, Sir Ken Robinson, who I watched a TED talk of Sir Ken Robinson. And he really made me think about education differently. And think outside the box. So we weren't doing the same thing day in day out doing things that we know, doesn't work. And I think So Ken Robinson came up with some great ideas that everybody sat around and said, Wow, that's fantastic. But then didn't change anything. So So Ken Robinson is really influential part of my career.

Simon Currigan: 29:34

Dean, it's been fascinating talking to you. I'm sure our listeners are going to walk away with lots to think about following what we've been talking about today. Thank you for joining us.

Dean Cotton: 29:43

Thank you for having me.

Emma Shackleton: 29:44

Oh, Dean makes some really good points there, especially how the way that we help kids reflect on their emotions and behaviour, and how we structure that conversation can be really powerful in changing that behaviour.

Simon Currigan: 29:59

I know and if you want to find out more about Dean's resources, I put direct links in the episode description.

Emma Shackleton: 30:06

And also if you're working with children who have difficulty managing strong emotions, we've got a free download that can help

Simon Currigan: 30:13

it uses a researched backed approach called Emotional scaling to help improve your student's emotional awareness ansd so learn the capacity to better regulate emotions, like anger, anxiety, and frustration. It's called unimaginatively. How to help children manage anger and other strong emotions.

Emma Shackleton: 30:32

This resource gives you lots of practical techniques and insights and even gives you resources to print out and use with your students. To get your free download, visit beaconschoolsupport.co.uk, click on the free resources section near the top. Remember, it's called How to help children manage anger and other strong emotions. And we've put a direct link in the episode description to make things easy for you.

Simon Currigan: 30:58

If you found today's show useful or valuable, then make sure you subscribe subscribing is completely free, and tells your app to download each and every episode as it's released. So you never miss a thing. Simply open up your podcast app and hit the subscribe button. It takes just seconds and subscribing will make you feel as happy as a rabbit who's just been gifted an unlimited carrot subscription service for his birthday. It's enough to put extra fluff in anyone's tail.

Emma Shackleton: 31:26

I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And did you spot the Easter egg?

Simon Currigan: 31:31

If you get to the end of the show, and you missed it, maybe listen again, but it is hiding in plain sight.

Emma Shackleton: 31:38

Why is this like the sixth sense? Here twice, episode

Simon Currigan: 31:42

one thing I guarantee once you hear this, you cannot earn hear it and with it goes any pretence of sensible respectable SEMH journalism at all. Trust me, you won't hear anything like this on any other educational podcast.

Emma Shackleton: 31:59

Okay, well, that's all we've got time for today. Have a brilliant week and we look forward to seeing you next time on school behaviour. Bye for now.

Simon Currigan: 32:08

Bye