Sue Larkey: 0:45

Do you

Emma Shackleton: 0:45

work with students that find it difficult to understand and succeed with social situations, so the result is that you see anxiety in the students, or they miscue and cause arguments and disagreements amongst their peers, or you get what looks like inappropriate behaviour, or those kids eventually avoid being in those social situations altogether? Well, if you do, this is the episode for you. Because today, our guest, Sue Larky, is going to explain step by step how to use social scripts to support those students in your classroom so that they can understand and manage social situations successfully.

Simon Currigan: 1:28

Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets Podcast. Podcast. I'm your host, Simon Corrigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, and of course students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi, everybody. My name is Simon Currigan, and welcome to another episode of School Behaviour Secrets. In the words of Rihanna, hey, baby. This is what you came for. If by this is what you came for, she meant student SEMH and behaviour insights, which I'm sure is exactly what was on her mind when she recorded it. I'm joined today as ever by my cohost, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma.

Emma Shackleton: 2:29

Hi, Simon.

Simon Currigan: 2:30

OK, it's question time.

Emma Shackleton: 2:31

Hit me.

Simon Currigan: 2:32

It's a good one. This is a YouGov survey back from 2016. So a little while back, but not too far. What percentage of women thought the tradition of a man paying for the first date is old fashioned?

Emma Shackleton: 2:47

Okay. So we're talking, like, 8 years ago here. I think that figure might be slightly different now. But my guess for 2016, the number of women who think that the tradition of the man paying for dinner on a first date would be old fashioned. Oh, I'm gonna go on the fence. I'm gonna say half of them, 50%. Go on. What was the actual figure?

Simon Currigan: 3:10

Right. I think your spidey sense was tingling on this one. So the survey said an even split. 49% of women said they thought it was old fashioned, 43%, so they didn't. The rest weren't sure. The younger you were, the more likely you were to think it was old fashioned with 57% of 18 to 20 nines thinking it was. And there was a really similar split amongst men. And the the male profile kind of mirrored the women's sort of the older you were, the less likely you were to think it was old fashioned.

Emma Shackleton: 3:41

Okay. Mildly interesting. What's that got to do with today's podcast?

Simon Currigan: 3:46

Right. So bear with me. So going on a first date is a really specific social situation, and there can be some awkwardness about talking who's gonna pay for the meal. Either party might make the wrong assumption about who was gonna pay because the social rules still aren't always clear. And often, we can see children in school struggling with social situations where the rules about what to say and do are implicit. They're unspoken. They're kind of assumed. And that can lead to misunderstandings and difficulties and anxiety, kids miscueing, and all sorts of knock on difficulties. And when you dig into the why behind many behavior incidents, you'll often find what sparked the issue was a child didn't understand how to do well in that social situation. And today, our guest, Soulaki, is going to explain how to use social scripts to support those people. Social scripts are a simple way of explaining what the social situation is, what it's for, and what to say and do in those situations to get a good outcome.

Emma Shackleton: 4:50

Actually, that does make perfect sense. But before we get into that, I'd like to say to any listeners who haven't subscribed to the show yet, why not? What are you thinking? Subscribing is the easy way to get new episodes of School Behaviour Secrets as and when they're released. All you've got to do is open your podcast app, tap the follow or subscribe button, and you'll never miss another thing.

Simon Currigan: 5:14

And while you've got that podcast app open, don't close it because we've got a free download that complements today's content really well. If you work with kids who present behavior that you find challenging or difficult to manage and you're not sure why the child is behaving that way and you want to address the underlying root cause of their behaviour, this will help. It's called the SEND handbook, and it will help you link behaviors you've seen in the classroom with possible causes like trauma or autism or ADHD, say.

Emma Shackleton: 5:44

And, of course, the idea here isn't for teachers to make a diagnosis. We're not qualified to do that. But if we link behaviors to possible causes quickly, it means that we can get the right help and get early intervention strategies into place.

Simon Currigan: 5:58

It even comes with a set of fact sheets with key information and strategies to support children with conditions like pathological demand avoidance, or you might have heard it referred to as PDA, oppositional defiant disorder or ODD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, FASD, and others.

Emma Shackleton: 6:14

The handbook is a completely free download. If you haven't got yours yet, we'll put a link in the episode description. So all you've got to do is open your podcast app. Click through directly to get your copy today. And here's Simon's conversation with Sue Larky.

Simon Currigan: 6:32

It is my absolute pleasure to welcome our guest, Sue Larky, to the show. Sue is a highly qualified educator who's taught students with autistic spectrum disorder in mainstream and special schools. She has her own podcast, the Sulaki podcast, which has over 200 episodes and 1,300,000 downloads. She combines practical experience with extensive research, having completed a master's in special education. Sue has also authored 18 books on autism spectrum disorders and other forms of neurodiversity, and she believes that armed with the tools of understanding and confidence, much can be achieved to support our young people. Sue, thank you for joining us today.

Sue Larkey: 7:15

Thank you for that lovely introduction. When I hear that, I think who did that? But, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years, so I call myself a pracademic, which is a practical academic. So don't turn off listeners. You're gonna take away tools and tips. There'll be no technical terms. It's just really practical strategies.

Simon Currigan: 7:33

Well, I've been really looking forward to this. I we've been watching you on social media and your podcast and I think it's gonna be really, really engaging today. It's it's not gonna be boring.

Sue Larkey: 7:41

No. I make no apologies that I do talk fast, but reminder, you can slow it down on your podcast if you need to, especially with my Aussie accent.

Simon Currigan: 7:52

So we're gonna focus today on using social scripts to support students to develop their social skills. But the the thing we need to get first, just to move it out of the way, is to ask, what do we actually mean by social skills, and why are they important for our students in school?

Sue Larkey: 8:08

Okay. So I prefer the term social knowledge, which I got off Dane Beadle who's in the UK and one of my friends and mentors who is on the spectrum and has a lived experience. Now I like the term social knowledge, but most teachers don't relate to that. So I tend to use that word social skills so people know what I'm talking about. But social knowledge is helping children with neurodiversity understand how weird and quirky neurotypical people can be and giving them the understanding because otherwise it builds anxiety. And so what my doctorate research actually found is that for many of our children past year 2, the rules change. You know, in the under 7, everyone's your friend, you can join to play in a game, but I've seen 15 year olds going up saying to other 15 year olds, can I play? Now can you imagine how 15 year olds would react to that? So what we're trying to do is give them the social knowledge and help them understand and make it more in a neurodiverse way. But I also want to say I don't think there is any point teaching a child in my class social knowledge without talking to the peers, and ensuring they know that other people engage socially differently and, ensuring that they, as I may say, embrace difference to make a difference, because as a classroom teacher I found it better if I did the social knowledge activities as a whole class, not just taking out the neurodiverse children, skilling them up, so called, and then the other kids don't react the way they were meant to.

Simon Currigan: 9:42

Where the children then experiment and try out that knowledge that they're in a supportive community, that everyone's clued into how we be inclusive and support each other.

Sue Larkey: 9:52

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what my doctorate research found is we don't give the other kids enough credit. We tend to hear the bad stories and actually in my experience in my classroom when I do social skills or social knowledge, the kids love it because they have noticed this child engages differently and often don't know how to engage with them. So I have had 7 year olds make a social script for another child. You know, like, we need to give them this the tools and understanding to help understand each other.

Simon Currigan: 10:22

And And I guess for those kids as well, the neurotypical kids, there is power in making the implicit knowledge, which is often quite fuzzy in our own heads as well. It's stuff we're doing intuitively. Actually, making it explicit in written and verbal form because that helps then solidify, crystallize your own thinking about about these kind of aspects of life.

Sue Larkey: 10:43

Absolutely. And look, for me, I really came into using social scripts because I had been in a mainstream and a specialist school and then was going out into mainstream schools and I was all these people like I'm getting all this behaviour, I'm getting all this behaviour, and when I stopped and looked back it wasn't behaviour, it was a child trying to engage, it was a child trying to understand, it was a child trying to connect, often not understanding how to do that, and then what I found is social scripts were much more positive. Like, even today I had an email from a school that, you know, oh the child's hitting there needs to be a consequence. No, you need to understand why the child's hitting and write a social script to help them understand what to do when they're angry and frustrated. Because telling a child no on the spectrum, do you know what they hear? Do you know what they hear,

Simon Currigan: 11:36

Simon, when

Sue Larkey: 11:37

we say no? Go on. Never. Never again for the rest of your life because of their literalness. So for example, when Lawson was told never run on the asphalt, that was a school rule. So she'd go outside for physical education and wouldn't run because she was told you're never allowed to run on the asphalt. So what social knowledge does or social scripts explains that sometimes we run on the asphalt, sometimes we don't. Sometimes when we're out playing with our friends we have to be careful so people don't get hurt, But when we're outside with a teacher doing supervised ball games, then we're allowed to run. Because when you hit say no, the child hears never.

Simon Currigan: 12:15

Okay. So that adds detail that they can understand. I always imagine things like like a Google map. It doesn't give you much information about the world. It just shows you a very basic black and white information about where the roads are. It doesn't give you the nuance, like where the paving stones are on the path, you know, exactly where the traffic lights are or what they look like, and it's adding detail onto them up. We've teased social scripts. Let's actually explore what they are and how they can help our students develop their social skills. So you've touched on it, but what is a social script actually for, and and what does it give students? How do they benefit from using them?

Sue Larkey: 12:53

Well, my friend, colleague, and co author Anna Talemans, who's a parent, and what Anna says, and I just love this, improvement in behaviour doesn't come from the social script, it comes from the improved social understanding. So what a social script does is give improved social understanding. So I'll give you an example, so Anna's Italian, her mum used to come over and want to hug her son Daniel, who is on the spectrum, and as soon as he'd hear Nona was coming, he would run up to his bedroom and hide. So she'd have a mum who's like, what's wrong with your child? You can imagine this family dynamic.

Simon Currigan: 13:29

Yeah.

Sue Larkey: 13:29

So she wrote a social script that was for Daniel and Nona. So the social script said, Nonna's love to hug their grandchildren. When Nonna's come we need to greet them at the door, we need to give them a big hug. Nona's like to count to 10 when they hug you. When you're hugging Nona you're going to count to 10. Once you have finished hugging Nonna you're going to give her a kiss on each cheek, say it's good to see you Nonna and you can go up into your bedroom. So she made that very clear, but for Nona to understand too, that was the rule now, and then they did that and then they added in when Nona's leave, Nona's like to hug and kiss again. So it was very clear to him and her what how it was going to look, and it took the whole stress out of the situation for both of them. Can you see what how that works?

Simon Currigan: 14:20

Absolutely. Because both of them now know what to expect from the situation. Nona wants that physical touch to show that compassion and that love, but it's gonna be limited for her. She knows that the child can only cope or manage so much of that. So she gets a bit of what she needs, but then the child then knows this is only gonna be a short term situation. It's not gonna go on forever. I'm only gonna hook for a short time, and then I can retreat to my safe space.

Sue Larkey: 14:46

Exactly

Simon Currigan: 14:47

And then Nana's not offended, and the child understands the situation and understands the expectations and can then thrive and cope and manage that situation really well because everything is super explicit, very, very clear.

Sue Larkey: 15:01

Absolutely. So that's sort of a home situation for parents that often explaining, I just have to tell you one funny one I was thinking about today, thinking about this. So whenever people come to my workshops I always send, what to do in your teachers away social script, you know, sometimes teacher is away, there's a different teacher, you know, I do it on Canva so teachers can edit it with their own information. But one of my families were going on holiday, and they're very concerned about taking their son on an airplane in a holiday, so we did a similar sort of social script where when we go on holidays, we're catching this plane, they did the whole social script, the whole thing, but they forgot to tell him he was going back home.

Simon Currigan: 15:43

Oh, one way ticket. Yeah?

Sue Larkey: 15:44

He thought he was moving house. The whole holiday, they crossed off the calendar each day, he knew what he was doing each day, they'd got on Google and downloaded all the information. He loved numbers so they'd like had ticket prices and times and all these things, but they forgot to tell him what flight he was going home on. So this is where we have to be really careful and use words like sometimes, usually, because what if that plane got delayed? What if the activities were closed? So this is where I think you've got to be really careful with your language. So as wonderful as social scripts and social stories are, I have seen it where children end up dobbing on peers for breaking rules because, you know, all kids swear. You can't say you can't swear. Sometimes people swear. So making sure the social scripts have that sort of flexibility is really important too.

Simon Currigan: 16:36

So it's not just the script. It's how you execute the script and how you really think about just just think about your plane example. We all carry around lots of implicit knowledge, and, actually, it's being mindful and intentional about, right, have I left any gaps here where I'm just assuming the person reading the story knows what I know and being kind of meticulous about that. Is that the right kind of

Sue Larkey: 17:00

Absolutely. And that's why I like the idea of social knowledge because that's what you're giving the child, the knowledge and understanding of the situation. And we just assume so much as neurotypical because we're a 4 wheel drive, this kid's a one track mind, so we have that flexibility of thinking and, you know, we're a four wheel train, we know planes break down, things go wrong, but if a child on the spectrum is told something because of their mind blindness, they don't know. They really don't know and then they often get in trouble. So that's why I think a lot of behaviour can be helped by doing the social script. I'm happy to send you the PDF with how to write them and the scenarios if you do attach things to your podcast because I think that's really helpful, and I've just got a one pager. So what I would recommend, the title introduces the scenarios, for example, in the one that people can download is, for his child who doesn't know how to ask for help, And this came from one of my little boys who was having a massive meltdown and, I asked him, what's wrong? And he said, my pencil's broken. I said, what else could you do? And he goes, no. My pencil's broken. The teacher comes quickly if I scream. It's like, well, we could ask for help.

Simon Currigan: 18:16

Right strategy, right time. Yeah.

Sue Larkey: 18:18

Yeah. Well, he's like, I don't wanna wait for the teacher to come I just scream. I know they'll come quickly. It's actually really clever, but in this one, it's, if I don't know what to do, I can ask for help. Okay? And then, again, we're using things like sometimes I need to ask the teacher for help. It's okay to ask for help when I don't know what to do. Some of my children who are perfectionists get very anxious about asking for help, so I'm giving them permission, that social knowledge, it's okay to ask for help. Because some of my students think everyone else knows what to do, and therefore the anxiety goes up, and when anxiety's up, problem solving's down. We, you know, amygdala and how that all works. So that's the perspective sentence. That sort of explains the situation. The next one is where we're coaching. So I put my hand up to attract the teacher's attention, I look towards the teacher. So we're telling the child, and I would actually model that, practice that, I'm really lucky I've got some amazing teacher assistants in Australia who'll go through these every day with the child and remind them. It does take a little bit of time, but it's better to be proactive than reactive.

Simon Currigan: 19:25

That repetition's important, isn't it? It's not a one and done. No. You wouldn't just teach anything in the classroom once and hope magically everyone would have to study. You have to come back to these and explore them.

Sue Larkey: 19:36

And the power of autism spectrum, it's their superpower. They love repetition. So if you don't have a teacher assistant, what I do, I video it once on my iPad and the kids watch it over and over again, right? So we can do it like a book for them to re watch so each morning and lots of schools in Australia are setting up these hubs now. Well, I've got a podcast episode on it, but basically children come in in the morning as an engine check, they might have a social script they're working on for the day, some thinking party, and this is where we build their skills and knowledge, and so if their teacher was away the social script about what do if your teacher is away is there or what to do if your friend is away, you know, so giving them that knowledge, the things that we know might trigger them, to remind them what can happen in the day. So, but this is the important thing a lot of people forget, the alternative. So we've told them what to do, but then you need an alternative. And it's like with the friendship, what to do if your friends don't want to play with you, you know, what to say if someone says no. You've got to give an alternative what they can do. So, sometimes the teacher is busy with someone else. That is okay, I can wait for help. This is really important with that we can wait. Yeah? And then the descriptive sentence. So when the teacher's finished with another student, I can call out in a medium voice, excuse me, I wait for the teacher to look at me and say my name, I then ask my question. Okay? And this is important and so often people think it's a bit weird in the social script but I found the children love it. It's the conclusion or affirming that when my teachers answer my question I say thank you, right? And my teacher is happy when I put my hand up for help. Do you know, like letting them know that my teacher is happy when I wait quietly with my hand up, My teacher's happy when I use a medium voice. So sort of reaffirming why.

Simon Currigan: 21:28

Because they might not be able to infer that.

Sue Larkey: 21:29

That's right. And I can tell you the kid's not happy waiting with their hand up and talking a medium voice. So what I'm explaining is the teacher's perspective of the situation. Does that make sense?

Simon Currigan: 21:39

Absolutely. So we've got a description of a situation, a context, or a trigger moment wanting to get some help from the teacher. Then you've got some coaching, a step by step. Then you've got a life doesn't always go that way, so here's the alternative. And then really a kind of summarizing the result of that, which is my teacher will be happy with me. So it's giving them an a to zed, a step by step of how to be successful, and then the result and the impact of following that routine. Is that a reasonable summary?

Sue Larkey: 22:11

Absolutely. And what I find is the teachers that I work closely with, they just start doing intuitively, you know, and, oh, I should have said the really important thing. This needs to be visual. It needs to be photos of the child, photos of you. I mean, I love video modelling. You can video the scenario. Can be comic strip. I mean, my kids who love drawing often draw their own. As I say, I've had other children do the illustrations for the children. Children on the spectrum are visual learners, so that visualness must be there. There's no point telling them I mean, I love it when people go, I've told them a 100 times, Just get a pen and paper. I don't think so. You can't draw. Just a stick figure will be fine.

Simon Currigan: 22:46

That's the beauty of the written word. You don't have to keep saying it. So let's imagine we're trying to support that student putting their hand up waiting for help from the teacher. What do we do if it doesn't seem to be working for them? They're not able to follow it, or they're able to follow parts of it, or it's it's just not working. What do we do then?

Sue Larkey: 23:05

Well, that's a really interesting question, and I'll be honest, I'm very intuitive. I've worked with over 3,000 kids. I'm normally very quick to work out what the problem is. I hate to say it. Sometimes the teacher's expecting the kid to wait for too long. Like, sometimes it's more the adult expectations than the child's. So, like, I had a child where what would happen by the time the teacher came over because of his executive functioning, he couldn't remember the question. So the teacher would finally come and he'd lost it and he couldn't remember what he wanted, and so what in his situation, we changed it to, while I'm waiting for the teacher, I can write down my question. I can circle my problem. So we gave him more actions to do because he just didn't read the room, the teacher would be busy with a maths group on the ground and was gonna be 5 minutes. The other thing we did with him, which was really powerful, we asked other students if he had his hand up to help because this is inclusion. Right? So we'd say, you know, if you see Jack with his hand up and you know the teacher's busy, we're trying to help him ask for help, how about you go and help him? So we had to do those little tweaks in and it took a little while to get it right, so I would be looking at, you know, all of those things, but sometimes it's, those underlying differences that are the problem with the script. We're writing it like a neurotypical person, not putting ourselves in the neurodiverse child's shoes.

Simon Currigan: 24:31

Can you give me a real world example of a success story that you've had using a social script, not a social story, to help a child overcome a barrier in school?

Sue Larkey: 24:41

Well, asking for help worked really well. I think the biggest one is where people have written rules like no hitting, no biting, where we actually replace it with, you know, asking for help. I just do it intuitively. Oh, I'll tell you a really good one. So I had a little boy who the teachers kept saying he didn't look sorry, and can you understand, like, that people expect to look when people hurt each other or do the wrong thing. So he wrote a social script for him about sorry plus an action. So when you hurt someone or someone's upset, you need to do sorry plus an action. So we talked about the actions. It might be getting a tissue, getting a teacher, doing all these things, and his facial expressions did not change. But because he did the action to fix up the problem, teachers stop saying he doesn't look sorry. And it it's so simple, and this is the thing, they're not hard, but it gave him the social knowledge that when you hurt someone or if you upset somebody or if you interrupt the teacher, actually saying, oh, sorry, and then putting your hand up is the action. You know, just say it's little things rather than just going sorry and then he'd be talking.

Simon Currigan: 25:52

We have a lot of parents in the audience as well as teachers. How could parents use this approach at home to support kids? Because there's more to being in society than just being in school. There's a lot of society that's nothing to do with school. And parents, I know they they write and say, you know, we have difficulties going out to shops or parties or doing new things. I'm just wondering how parents could use this.

Sue Larkey: 26:16

So with parents, absolutely. I use them all the time. Like, some of your parents are like this one. This is an Anna Talaman's one. So her son, Daniel, with the hugging and nonna, she had a huge problem with him staying in his bedroom. So and he he's no good sleeper. A lot of our ADHD, ASD, comorbidity kids don't sleep well. So she knew he didn't sleep well, but she needed her sleep. So she wrote a social script about mum needs her sleep. If you wake up in the night, you're allowed to go to the toilet, get a drink, play with your Lego, but you need to let mum have her sleep. You have to wait for mum to wake up and she will come to you in the morning. Well, he read the script and most of it he followed. But this one day, he was desperate, obviously, for her to wake up. So Anna wakes up, and he's standing, looking over her.

Simon Currigan: 27:06

Have you seen the film paranormal activity? Scariest thing ever.

Sue Larkey: 27:08

Anna said, even if when it's your own kid standing, looking over her. Then she had to, like, practice that, like, saying in your own room, but that can be a real problem for parents. So, like, writing a social script like that. Christmases, birthdays, writing social stories. But what I find with those is making sure the child has a job at those things. For example, if they're going to the birthday party, their job might be to hand things around, beat on the music, but also saying if everyone gets overwhelmed at parties. So, Simon, if you're overwhelmed at a party, what would you do?

Simon Currigan: 27:41

In the real world, I stick closely to my wife. And she does all the talking Especially where there are people that I don't know, big parties with people I don't know. I I shrink away from those. I I certainly let my wife take the lead and hide in her shadow. That's my strategy.

Sue Larkey: 27:55

Well, did you know a lot of people go to the toilet? Because it's a quiet room

Simon Currigan: 27:58

Alright.

Sue Larkey: 27:58

Where you can go and get some time away from people, and it's socially appropriate to say I'm just gonna go to the toilet. So saying to children, if you need some time on your own, you could go to the toilet for 5 minutes and then come back. If you still need time on your own, the other thing people especially young children, reading a book. People think, oh, aren't they cute reading a book? Isn't that adorable? They're a bookworm. No one questions a child not joining in again if they're reading a book. So we're gonna take a book with us and if you need to read your book, you can go and read your book because families get exhausted having to explain their children's behaviour all the time. So I know it's not ideal, but I just know my little tricks and one of them is go to the toilet for 5 minutes, read a book and, you know, letting the other one a lot of families do when they're leaving a party, they say goodbye 10 times. And so they'd say to the child, we're leaving, and then half an hour later they haven't left. Right?

Simon Currigan: 28:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Sue Larkey: 28:55

So this is why the kid doesn't wanna go because you go, oh, we're going, we're going. Like, if you're leaving you say goodbye and we will be in the car within 5 minutes. Don't tell the child they're leaving till you're actually leaving, like do all your goodbyes first. So you might have a social script about when we leave, who do we have to say thank you to? We have to say thank you to grandma, grandpa, auntie Susan, and we leave. Does that make sense?

Simon Currigan: 29:19

Absolutely. Sue, as promised, this has been super practical, stuff we can use in the real world.

Sue Larkey: 29:25

Yeah.

Simon Currigan: 29:26

If you're a teacher or a parent who's listening to this podcast, what's the first step you can take today to start supporting your students or your own children with social scripts?

Sue Larkey: 29:35

Really, when you see a behaviour, ask yourself what is the need? What knowledge doesn't this child have? How can I support them solve the problem? Because so often it's giving them the skills and knowledge to support that problem. And if any of your listeners have a stack, they're welcome to email me. I love getting emails and like helping, so they are welcome to email me. It keeps me honest, that's what I say.

Simon Currigan: 29:59

So Sue, how do our, listeners find out more about you and your resources? How to how can they follow you, get in touch with you, that kind of thing?

Sue Larkey: 30:06

Yeah. So social media, it's just Sue Larkey, but it's l a r k e y on Facebook and Instagram, or they can go to my website, which is just suelarkey.com.au. They're not very creative, and the podcast name is Sue Larkey too. I know. I'm I think I'm Oprah, I think.

Simon Currigan: 30:25

I was gonna say don't overthink it.

Sue Larkey: 30:27

Exactly.

Simon Currigan: 30:27

And I can put a link in the show notes. So if people are listening to this now and they want to see and visualize it for themselves, I'll put a direct link in the episode description. So if you're listening to this podcast, all you have to do is tap on the episode. There's usually an information button or a more button or something like that, and you'll find a a direct link

Sue Larkey: 30:44

Yeah.

Simon Currigan: 30:44

To Sue's website where you can get a hold of that. Finally, Sue, we ask this of all our guests. Who is the key figure that's influenced you, or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?

Sue Larkey: 30:57

Now you've got to know me over the last half an hour, you know I'm not going to give you one, don't you?

Simon Currigan: 31:03

Yes

Sue Larkey: 31:03

So I thought it was only fair, I had a lived experience, which is Temple Grandin, who influenced my masters on using visuals and her book Thinking in Pictures had just come out. Would you believe when when the book came out it took 3 months to get shipped to Australia 30 years ago and I was doing my masters, but that Temple has been my mentor, Her if any parents don't know Temple, please go and look Temple up. Her tele movie is worth watching. It rotates which free one it's on, but Temple Grandin is a must, must, must do. But it's funny, I had forgotten all about this author because I suspect she's not on earth anymore because I tried to look up today, that there was a lady called Kathleen Quill who again when I was doing my master's in special ed wrote a book teaching children with autism strategies to enhance communication and socialisation and I had forgotten all about it. Again, I actually was doing my masters, I found some papers she'd written and I wrote her a handwritten letter back in the day, and she sent me this book complimentary. I'd sort of forgotten about it until you asked that question, and she was a mentor from afar for me. And I think books can be your mentor. You don't have to know the person you or listening to a podcast just reassures you and keeps you on the right track, but both Temple and Kathleen were fundamentally my masters, my doctorate, and my passion for helping.

Simon Currigan: 32:26

It's amazing how little interactions like that can have a huge impact on our lives, isn't it? Sue, I have loved this. I wish we had more time, but we don't. Thank you for being on the show today. I'm sure everyone listening has learned so much. I know I have.

Sue Larkey: 32:39

Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Emma Shackleton: 32:41

Wow. Lots of useful ideas and strategies there that anybody can use in their classroom straight away.

Simon Currigan: 32:48

Yeah. A 100%. Sue's super engaging. It was I really enjoyed recording that interview, actually. And I'll put a direct link to Sue's website and social media in the episode description and the link to that all important social scripts explainer. All you gotta do is tap directly through.

Emma Shackleton: 33:03

And I recommend that you do I actually follow Sue on social media, and she's brilliant. I'm a really big fan, definitely.

Simon Currigan: 33:11

And that's all we've got time for today. I hope you found today's interview helpful. If you have, remember to share it with your friends and colleagues. After all, that's probably how you came across the podcast in the first place from someone sharing it on social media or messaging you a link. So pass on the love and share it on your social media feed with any of your friends who benefit from hearing it.

Emma Shackleton: 33:32

And we hope you have a great week, and we're looking forward to seeing you next time on the next episode of School Behaviour Secrets. Bye for now.

Simon Currigan: 33:39

Bye.