Simon Currigan: 0:44

We want our schools to be welcoming, inclusive places where everyone feels okay about being in school. But for many autistic pupils, that isn't the case. So how do we help, neurodiverse pupils understand and take control of their mental health and well-being, feel valued and heard by their peers, and, b, okay in school. That's the focus of this episode where we interview Joss Lambert and Lily Ashby from the autistic and okay program, and they explain the challenges faced by our neurodiverse students and how to set up a whole school peer led approach to helping autistic pupils feel accepted and understood. This is an important conversation, so you won't want to miss it. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My cohost is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. My name is Simon Currigan, and welcome to another episode of School Behaviour Secrets. While other educational podcasts are like fine food to the dinner party and exquisite beef wellington, a lasagna cooked with finely balanced herbs and garlic, or a gooey melt in the middle chocolate pudding cooked to perfection. A bit more like a cheese fondue. No one asked for it. No one's happy to see us. I'm joined by my cohost, Emma Shackleton, today who I'm sure you'd welcome at any dinner party. Hi, Emma.

Emma Shackleton: 2:35

Hi, Simon.

Simon Currigan: 2:36

I'd love to start today's show by offering you some fondue and asking you a question. Is that alright?

Emma Shackleton: 2:41

Of course. Go ahead.

Simon Currigan: 2:43

Right. So the question is and this is another survey one. Right? This is interesting. According to YouGov Research, both generation x and baby boomers both put spending time with friends as their top social activity. But what did millennials say? Was it the same? Was it something different? And if it was something different, what do you think it was?

Emma Shackleton: 3:07

Okay. So millennials, that's people born between 1981 1986, also known as generation y.

Simon Currigan: 3:15

You've done your research on this.

Emma Shackleton: 3:17

I had to Google that! Obviously, I didn't just know that. I think they would still rate spending time with friends highly, but I think that the way they spend time with their friends is different. So they're probably not even in the same room, so maybe connecting through their phones or by playing video games together.

Simon Currigan: 3:38

I found this really interesting, and you're pretty close to it. Millennials went with listening to music, then using the Internet, and then watching movies at home. And in fact, spending time with friends, I guess, online or offline, was actually down at number 7 in the poll, which I think, like you said, reflects a change in how we communicate and kind of interact and spend our time. And why millennials are so sad? That's probably house prices, isn't it? Sorry, millennials.

Emma Shackleton: 4:08

Oh, wow. That's a bit scary, actually. What's your point with the survey? How is it related to today's episode?

Simon Currigan: 4:15

Okay. So I think this kind of reflects how groups of people are different in how comfortable and enjoyable they find social situations. And this is an example of maybe of how millennials and Gen zed are communicating more on mobile devices and on the Internet than through in person contact. And today, we're going to share my interview with Joss Lambert and Lily Ashby from ambitious about autism, where we discuss how the social environment of school can actually be, for some students, very wearing and really exhausting, even intimidating, especially for many autistic pupils. And we talk about what we can do as teachers and school leaders systematically at a whole school level to support those students and make them feel valued and accepted and how their free autistic and okay program can help.

Emma Shackleton: 5:05

That sounds like a really important conversation. But before we get into that, how about doing a friend or colleague a favour by sharing the link to School Behaviour Secrets podcast and letting them in on all of the good stuff too. All you've got to do is open your podcast app and click the share button. And by the magic of technology, they too will be able to listen to the show. It's a 10 second job that could really help a friend out and mean that they and the children in their care benefit as well. Thank you for sharing.

Simon Currigan: 5:37

And, look, while you've got your podcast app open, obviously, it makes sense to subscribe and follow School Behaviour Secrets so you never miss another episode.

Emma Shackleton: 5:46

If you're working with pupils with SEMH needs and you're not sure why they're behaving that way, we've got a download that can help. It's called the SEND handbook and it helps you to link the behaviors that you're seeing in class to possible underlying causes, like trauma, ADHD, and autism. It also comes with lots of helpful fact sheets and strategies to support children with a range of needs.

Simon Currigan: 6:15

Can I throw in an interesting fact at this point? At the time of recording, it's been downloaded over 85,000 times.

Emma Shackleton: 6:25

The handbook?

Simon Currigan: 6:26

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Emma Shackleton: 6:28

Wow. So if you want to join the ranks of over 85,000 of your fellow educators, go and grab your free copy of the handbook today. We'll put a link in the episode description. So all you've got to do is open up your podcast app, check the description, and tap directly through. If you haven't done that already, do it today. Even better, do it now. And here's Simon's interview with Joss and Lily about the autistic and ok program.

Simon Currigan: 6:58

It's my great pleasure to welcome Joss Lambert and Lily Ashby to the show today. Joss works for the national charity Ambitious about Autism. He is project officer on the charity's autistic and ok program, a preventative mental health program for autistic secondary school pupils. Joss's younger brother, Adam, is autistic, and he's passionate about advocating for the acceptance of autistic young people in wider society. Lily is 17 years old, and she's an autistic youth program ambassador for autistic and ok. She's currently in 6th form in Greater London where she enjoys pursuing her passion of product design. In her spare time, she loves to play with her dog, Aspen, and is currently really enjoying creating her own lino prints. Welcome to you both, and thanks for joining us on this episode.

Joss Lambert: 7:44

Thank you, Simon. Lovely to be with you.

Lily Ashby: 7:46

Thank you. Yeah.

Simon Currigan: 7:47

So before we talk about what the program actually is, I'm interested in what prompted your organization to start the autistic and ok program. What were you seeing in school and what were the young people you were working with experiencing?

Joss Lambert: 8:02

Yeah so we created the autistic and ok program as we're seeing a real need for mental health support for autistic young people in schools across the country and this is really demonstrated in issues such as absenteeism. So if we take secondary state schools as an example, there are over 70,000 autistic young people autistic pupils in in secondary schools and over 20,000 of these are persistently absent from school, which is defined as missing, more than 10% of school. And we also know more generally that 4 and 5 autistic young people tell us that they've experienced mental health issues, they've gone through struggles. What these figures paint a picture of is that the vast majority of autistic pupils are fortunately are not feeling okay in school, and lots of them are really struggling, lots of them are missing large chunks of school, they're missing GCSEs, A levels, really important milestones. And also we we know this can have an impact socially. So obviously not being with your peers, with your friends, can lead to isolation, can lead to feelings of feeling left out that kind of thing.

Simon Currigan: 9:03

I was gonna say this must lead to lots of feelings of kind of like anxiety and stress. This is an important time in children's kind of social development.

Joss Lambert: 9:09

Yeah. It's a massive time for that socially as well as academically. And I think that's the impact it's having on young people's mental health and the sort of reasons behind why there can be these high rates of absences. There are a few reasons really, a lack of understanding and support from teachers and that isn't like willfully on teachers part, bullying and stigma from other peers and other young people at school that aren't autistic that might not have as much knowledge about autism or there might be some stigma around it. And then also anxiety caused by sort of sensory environment at school, the overwhelming nature of being at school at times, for example like an assembly hall or in a canteen at lunchtime. So yeah we know that teachers really want that support and they want to do the best for all peoples including autistic peoples. But many simply just don't have the resources. They don't have the capacity, the time to do so. So that's one of the main reasons why we created this program for pupils and teachers alike.

Lily Ashby: 10:01

But I would also say that just generally, the school environment is very overwhelming and overstimulating for autistic pupils, especially when you have autistic pupils who are highly masking. So who are camouflage their autistic traits effectively to fit in because they feel like they need to fit in. Otherwise, there's the worry of being bullied, etcetera. And that's all very tiring and making it to the end of the day, it feels like a mountain away. And there isn't much support available to deal with that. And especially with the, like, health care professionals in school, like nurses aren't really trained how to deal with autistic burnout. So it can be very difficult in terms of feeling understood and also the then not trying to just get out of school. It's because they physically can't deal with the school environment.

Simon Currigan: 10:56

And I guess that's gotta take its toll when you get back home. If you're holding in or you're trying to manage these anxieties if you've got sensory sensitivity, school is a difficult place to be if you're trying to hold all that together. When you get home, that's gonna have an impact in on your home life as well..

Lily Ashby: 11:13

Yeah It can make for difficult home life as well. And, also, it means that, like, hobbies that you have at home or anything that you'd like to do extra curricular get, like, pushed aside because you're completely tired out. So it means that you're quite isolated because you don't get to go to the other extracurricular activities and socialize, which are already very tiring on its own. But having to do that after school is just really difficult.

Simon Currigan: 11:42

That makes total sense. Total sense. So what is the goal? What's the purpose of your autistic and ok program? Specifically, what are you aiming to achieve? We've we've defined the problem and the issues that we're seeing in school. Where is autistic and ok hoping to take things to?

Joss Lambert: 11:59

Yeah. So I guess the main aim of the program is to empower autistic pupils to be able to better manage their own mental health and well-being before reaching that kind of crisis point. So the program provides schools with an educational toolkit and this is essentially like a sort of pack of resources. And these resources encompass a range of different things, but they're all designed at helping autistic peoples better able to understand and look after their own mental health, and so giving them the tools and techniques that work best for them. So it's it's quite tailored to the individual. It's quite adaptable. But we also wanna give autistic young people the space to discuss with their peers and and explore these mental health topics that are covered in the sessions and, like, foster a network of support. So a big part of the program is connecting with peers and across year groups, so we think that's a really sort of positive outcome from the program. Another main aim of the program is to kind of foster a wider school community attitude in the wider school community of acceptance towards autistic people. So this can be across obviously the majority in mainstream schools who would be neurotypical or non autistic, might not have an understanding of autism, might not feel like they know anyone who's autistic. So really bridging that gap of understanding we feel it will go a long way. Also supporting teachers, obviously parents. So yeah, we really hope that as a sort of secondary aim that it breaks down stigma and and builds understanding around autism as well.

Simon Currigan: 13:21

So it's quite a broad based program that is. It's giving individuals skills to manage your life, which is super important because you're gonna go out as an adult, and you're going to need those skills, you know, in the big wide world, but also creating and, like you said, fostering that sort of whole school community sense of we're inclusive. Everyone's important. We all take care of each other. How does that program work in a sort of practical day to day sense? For people listening, I want them to be able to imagine what it actually looks like in a classroom. What would we see happening in classrooms or across schools? And I guess from both here , the adult, the teacher's perspective, and the student's perspective. What is it like to implement and what is it like to participate in?

Joss Lambert: 14:00

Of course. Yeah. So the sort of core content of the program is peer led sessions. So these are 4 sessions each an hour long. They are adaptable and can be fit into the school curriculum in sort of 2 30 minute blocks or in sort of short 45 minute sessions. And so these sessions are designed to be delivered by autistic pupils in the older years. So this is years 10 and above. Peer facilitator role, the sort of leadership role in these sessions is aimed at maybe year 12, 13 students, schools that don't have that sick form years 10 to 11, and they deliver these sessions to younger autistic pupils in the school. So that's the sort of, like, from a student's perspective, the school SENCO or like the sort of health and well-being lead would be the people we feel are best placed to kind of lead this program, support the peer facilitators, and support actually the younger people attending these sessions. The 4 sessions are on understanding and managing anxiety, OCD, depression, and there's also a side topic kind of on mental health and bullying. As we know bullying has an impact on lots of these mental health. Each of the sessions that come with powerpoint slides, session plans for the peer PFS facilitators to be able to review and know what they're delivering, and also like worksheets and resource sheets so young people can work individually in in sessions, they can engage with the activities, or they can work in small groups. And so obviously while we appreciate these can be quite daunting topics, they're they're quite big topics especially for younger peoples, maybe years 7, 8, who have learned about anxiety or depression for the first time perhaps. They're really based around a series of activities in each one and they're designed to get discussion going, get connections going, and people to share their experience if they feel comfortable to. So we feel like they're quite interactive and and sort of fun to take part in.

Simon Currigan: 15:42

So this is a secondary program, and a secondary pupil, so that's sort of age 11, 12, and above. What kind of group size do you recommend? And the children in the group, So this is, pupils with a diagnosis of autism, or or how does that work?

Joss Lambert: 15:53

You don't have to have a diagnosis of autism. We realize that especially even in in secondary school age, there are big barriers to getting that diagnosis. So so we we really sort of recommend that as up to the SenCos and the health, well-being lead who they feel would be best placed to take part in these sessions. In terms of group size, we recommend not more than maybe 10. Obviously, it depends on the school's, like, number of autistic students, but these sessions work better as kind of a smaller group. So if you had a group of 10 you can maybe have 3 groups of 3 working on the activities. That works really nicely but the pilot that we run last year had much smaller groups in there so groups of

Lily Ashby: 16:27

It depends on the school as well. Most schools don't, but there are a couple of schools who already have a group that meets who is either autistic or neurodivergent and then being able to deliver those sessions as a group that's already comfortable. But a big part of the program is to get autistic pupils together. I found when I talked to other autistic pupils that it was really beneficial to meet other people who understood what it was like to be an autistic people in school and then being able to work through like mental health issues together really makes a connection between other autistic peoples and builds kind of friendships, which wouldn't have come if they hadn't met each other.

Simon Currigan: 17:10

That makes perfect sense because I'm guessing it helps you build a supportive social network, like, of real people. When we talk about social networks, we tend to think about Facebook by actually having face to face contact with people that you know in in real life in school and having that network develop actually support you in school.

Joss Lambert: 17:27

So in terms of the program delivery, I talked about the the 4 sessions there, and they can be really sort of flexibly spread out over the school term. There's not like a set amount of time that needs to be delivered in. Obviously, it works to keep up momentum with the program, so delivering maybe 1 session a week or 1 session every 2 weeks. 30 minute blocks is is really good because it feels like the group that are maybe meeting for the first time, as I say, you split across a number of age groups and emphasize that flexibility of the program

Lily Ashby: 17:55

And with the peer facilitators who will be delivering the sessions, I've delivered one of the sessions myself at my own school. And first of all, you get, like, an overview sheet on that session, and then you get, like, a slideshow which accompanies the main presentation, which kind of goes through, like, the key points and explains what each slide means. So it's very supported in a sense you're not just given a presentation and told to do it. There's a lot of support behind that. Obviously, you want the peer facilitators to lead because we want it to be peer led. Obviously, there will be teachers who can supervise, and so there's always that reassurance that if you're becoming overwhelmed, there's no pressure to carry on doing it. You can take a break, and the teacher's there. So making sure that both the autistic peoples in the session and the peer facilitator are comfortable with what they're doing was really important, and getting these resources done has, from my personal experience, was really helpful to me feeling comfortable delivering it and knowing what I was doing.

Simon Currigan: 19:02

So it's not just supportive for the pupils attending, but if you're a pupil presenting, there's also that kind of support around you to make sure it's successful.

Lily Ashby: 19:10

Yeah.

Simon Currigan: 19:11

How did you develop the program to make sure it was relevant to both? Because you you've got different stakeholders here. You've got your autistic pupils in school, obviously. And then you mentioned the wider school community, and you've got families as well. So how did you make sure it was relevant when you

Lily Ashby: 19:29

were developing the program? So when we developed the program, we had a panel created with 15 youth advisers from the ambitious youth network to basically co develop with professionals such as educational psychologists and experts in kind of the field of creating resources for this type of thing And making sure that each of the topics was true to what an autistic person experienced because it's really important with these things that it's not coming from person who's never actually experienced it. You may have a PhD studies in autism, but it doesn't mean that you'll actually be able to know what it feels like to go through these mental health issues. So having that made it really good in terms of it staying true and relatable for the autistic pupils who will eventually be seeing it.

Joss Lambert: 20:22

So we also spoke to a same co consultant, Lily touched on the experts, we spoke to them before it was really important, as well as the sort of being led by autistic young people themselves to have that that inside knowledge in schools. So they helped us develop, for example, a teacher training module that is part of the toolkit resources, and this is slightly different from the sort of mental health sessions, but focuses more on what teachers can do to support autistic young people experiencing mental health difficulties. Things like shutdowns and meltdowns and autistic burnout that Lily touched on earlier. So really specific resources for teachers to improve their knowledge of autism as I mentioned earlier. So this we hope is really sort of useful that CPD training module.

Lily Ashby: 21:01

Also in the toolkit there's a assembly video which kind of goes through the main points in terms of what autism is, what autistic people's experience, and how the rest of the school, so how the pupils watching it who are not autistic, can help their autistic peers and make basically the school more of an inclusive society. And this video, some of the autistic youth advisers also talked about their experiences in the video, and it was voiced over by them. So, yeah, keeping autistic pupils at the heart of what program is. And also a lot of us on the supervisors had experienced bullying and mental health issues. We did experience this. So being able to understand what other autistic peoples may be going through now hopefully kind of comforts them to know that they're not alone.

Simon Currigan: 21:52

And I guess hearing those words spoken by someone who's going through that situation, again, gives it an authenticity that it's difficult for a neurotypical adult standing on a stage delivering an assembly to to give. You kind of lose that connection because on the one hand, they're a different age and on the other hand, they might have a sort of a different neurobiology. So it helps bring that kind of authentic voice about school experience together. What kind of feedback have you received from teachers and school leaders who have used the program?

Joss Lambert: 22:24

Yeah. So as part of developing the program, we we run a pilot scheme and that was in the autumn term of last year, so September to December. This was across 19 secondary schools in 7 different regions of England, and we're really just delighted with the feedback. We received fantastic feedback, and it's funny you touched on that, the authenticity part because one of the teachers' feedback was that they're being co developed the resources by autistic young people themselves and by young people, such as Lydia O'Stealley in school, really gave it like an extra level of gravitas and you could see that it connected a lot more with the young people that are taking part in the program. So we had the fact that there was a good balance of it being both educational and supportive, where we had teachers say that the students really engaged with and enjoyed the sessions, and we also delivered a number of surveys as part of the the evaluation of the pilot. One of the real takeaways that we were really pleased by was that 93% of peer facilitators, so the ones leading the sessions, felt they'd developed important skills throughout the program such as communication skills, leadership, collaboration with their fellow pupils. So that was really important. We had young people say that talking to the peer facilitators was really valuable as well, and they felt like they could open up more to them than teachers, or they felt more comfortable in that kind of setting. And also from parents, we had a really positive bit of feedback from a parent that said the program had a positive impact, and their child was able to more identify when they were maybe struggling with their mental health and communicate the needs to their parents. So

Simon Currigan: 23:49

So that's the big picture results from using the program, but can we hear about a personal success story from a student who's used the program?

Lily Ashby: 23:57

I can talk about what I've seen at my school in terms of leading and being able to see the autistic pupils feel comfortable to open up to each other and talk about it especially with, like, the activities in the presentation really enabled things that autistic peoples often feel that they can't talk about, that there's shame in talking about when they really shouldn't be, feel like they could now open up and that someone else may also be experiencing this and then they're not, like, alone in their own bubble. And being able to empower autistic pupils to be able to take charge of their mental health. In the environment that's created when doing these presentations and these sessions, it means that a lot of autistic peoples who wouldn't feel comfortable to, like, stim, etcetera, you can see them a lot more comfortable to stim and chat about their special interests, etcetera. So that's been really great to see.

Simon Currigan: 24:55

We go into school still, and we still meet real teachers and real pupils. And I see a lot of pupils who are kind of quietly struggling going under the radar because they're doing what you're saying masking. And I imagine there's a lot of power not just in being able to talk about what's happening to you, but actually to listen if you're a quiet person, to listen to other people having the same challenges as you and thinking I'm not on my own. Yeah.

Joss Lambert: 25:19

We actually received some some videos of the sessions. So one of the sessions is on OCD as I mentioned and there was a young person, they were talking to the peer facilitator and they were saying I relate to that kind of thing because I've only ever heard of OCD as like the sort of stereotypical things about it being sort of being neat and clean and that those kind of stereotypes. So session really breaks down those misconceptions around OCD, and and the young person was saying they felt like they related to some of the examples of OCD. So while that's not like the primary aim of the program, so obviously stop diagnosing anyone, it can be really really sort of powerful for young people to recognize in themselves maybe what mental health struggles they're going through and then gives them the tools to kind of think, right, this is how I've got a handle on that now, and this is how I can sort of help myself or work with a teacher to receive support.

Lily Ashby: 26:08

And a big part of the program is that mental health issues that autistic people experience often can be felt differently to what the usual mental health presentation would look like, especially with in terms for OCD because of sensory differences that autistic pupils have. Often it's experienced slightly differently to what a neurotypical person experiencing OCD would have. So being able to talk that through with other autistic pupils who also struggle with the same sensory differences, or they can be different. But even so, there's still that understanding and being able to talk about it in a sense that we are autistic peoples as well is quite important as it may also be difficult to talk about with health professionals who may not understand what struggles autistic people face. Being able to talk about mental health when they don't fully understand that background can be difficult. So being able to give these resources to them is really important.

Simon Currigan: 27:09

If you're a teacher or a school leader who's concerned about the mental health well-being of their autistic students in school. What's the simplest first step that they can take today to support those pupils?

Lily Ashby: 27:21

Yeah. So I would say a big part is just listen in terms of a lot of teachers do already listen. I'm not saying as a criticism, but just not being dismissive of the struggles they're experiencing as it often takes a lot of courage for autistic students to come forward due to the pressure of stigma and like the worry that they may be bullied because of it if someone sees them talking about it or that they may not be taken seriously when they talk about these things to teachers. And knowing, recognizing that not all autistic students who are struggling are going to be visibly obvious. Not all autistic peoples are gonna be actively disrupting the classroom, being really loud and stuff. Although that's the stereotype with autism, it's definitely not the norm for a lot of autistic students. So just because a student is quiet doesn't mean that they may not be struggling. So being able to check-in and making sure the environment they know they can talk and feel comfortable talking without worrying about any potential consequences for that because just creating that really understanding environment so that pupils gradually feel more comfortable to talk about it is just really important and that their concerns will not be dismissed. And I understand that it's difficult, obviously, in this current climate because of how much pressure the SEND system is under. But just like small things like letting students stim in classrooms like with fidget toys or wearing earplugs. I know that a lot of teachers are concerned in terms of what it may be to other pupils, but being able to let everyone learn is really important. And just having those little things, which probably won't take up, like, 30 seconds, because I know that the teachers are under a lot of pressure at the moment, but just those little things will make a whole lot of difference to autistic pupils.

Simon Currigan: 29:19

Those are really small things. Be observant, don't make assumptions, and listening and make small accommodations. These are the things that don't require lots of money and training. These are very simple things that a human being can do to support another human being.

Lily Ashby: 29:34

Yeah.

Simon Currigan: 29:35

Were not, you know, it's it's not asking the world. Joss, did you have anything you wanted to add to that?

Joss Lambert: 29:38

I think Lily's examples are brilliant. Like, she mentioned, the fidget toys and things like that, allowing sort of movement breaks or brain breaks, sometimes called in lessons. I mean, even in the art sessions themselves as as we said, the topics, might be heavy for some people, so building in those time for breaks. Quiet rooms and quiet zones can be really important for autistic young people in schools, not just in the classroom environment. Sometimes when you go out the classroom it can be always can be busy and buzzing and loud and overwhelming. I'd say just as a link back to the program, teachers have told us how much that they can get from peer support, peer to peer support. So building those spaces whether it's our program or whether it's different groups of young people being able to sort of share and and and talk about these things. I think it really does almost do a lot of work for the teachers themselves. You just get young people in. Obviously, it's got to be moderated and supervised with this kind of thing, make sure it's safe and with safeguarding. Those peer to peer spaces can be really valuable, for young people.

Simon Currigan: 30:37

And for teachers and school listeners who are listening to this thinking, right how do I get this program in my school? Who specifically is the program aimed at and how can schools find out more about implementing autistic and ok in their school? How do they get hold of it and so on?

Joss Lambert: 30:52

As we've mentioned at this point, the program is available to all secondary schools in the UK. In terms of who delivers the program, like SENCOs and health and well-being leads within schools are the best place anyone can download the toolkit from from schools. But that's who we thought may be best placed to deliver the program and work with the older peer facilitators to deliver the sessions. So obviously schools can find out about our program on our website, push about autism.org.uk/autisticandok, but on this page, on this webpage you can find further sort of step by step information about how to deliver the program. There's a video about implementation and how it kind of more practically works on a day to day basis as we've touched on. I'd say once you've downloaded the toolkit from our website, a great place to start is the teacher handbook, which has an extensive range of resources, but kind of breaks down what each resource in the toolkit means and when it can be delivered and what stage to do things. It also has things like checklists about before, after, and during peer led sessions, what teachers kind of role is. So things like that are really useful but it was initially aimed at mainstream schools but we're open for all secondary schools to download the toolkit.

Simon Currigan: 31:56

And is there a cost for schools?

Joss Lambert: 31:58

It's absolutely free.

Lily Ashby: 31:59

I mean, a big part of it was getting the resources because of this pressure on the SEN system. A lot of the autistic peoples who would most benefit from this program are in mainstream schooling. There's a statistic for how many pupils are in mainstream schooling, but there's a lot. And for them to access resources can be significantly more difficult than if you're in a specialist school. So for teachers to be able to easily access that without costs, without lots of preparation involved with it was really important. And, obviously, we know it won't cover everything, but we're just hoping it'll make a little bit of a difference to make autistic people feel that much better in school and enjoy school and be able to feel like they can be themselves at school.

Simon Currigan: 32:47

And I'll put direct links to the resources in the show notes as well. So if people are listening to this and they want to be able just to tap directly through without going on the Internet, if you tap on this episode as it's playing, a more info button or something similar will usually pop up. And if you're listening, you just tap on that, and you'll see the link. I'll put the direct link to the autistic and ok resources there to make it easy for everyone. Any advice to schools wanting to implement the program in the most effective way possible? Now you've done the pilots and you've had a rollout, are there any practical tips you've got that you've learned?

Joss Lambert: 33:19

We feel that it's very adaptable. It's very flexible. So it's it's about adapting the the toolkit resources and the content and how the program's delivered best to what suits your school. So some sort of practical examples of this, as I mentioned, the session timings can be split up into 2 30 minute blocks. Attendees to the sessions would rather work individually. They can work on the worksheets. There's absolutely no pressure for young people to kind of work together. The sessions themselves can be split over a term. We appreciate schools delivering the program now. It's a very busy exam term that we've we've got just started today. So yeah, we really want young people to be able to put their own kind of style on things and and spin on things and their own delivery style. So I really think it's a it's a great opportunity for young people to take on that kind of leadership role and and make it their own. So, yeah, those are some tips I'd say.

Lily Ashby: 34:08

I'd just say teachers just, engage with autistic students, trying to create a safe space that so that students feel comfortable engaging in the session without the fear of judgment. Just keeping an open mind, almost being able to watch the sessions as a teacher from feedback we've heard is almost kind of a form of CPD in a way. They're also learning stuff as they go along from the discussions that the autistic pupils are having.

Simon Currigan: 34:37

Makes total sense. Total sense. Now normally, I would wrap up with a single question, but I've got 2 guests here today, so I'm gonna ask you separate questions to wrap up the interview. I'm gonna start with Joss. Joss, who is the key figure that's influenced you, or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?

Joss Lambert: 34:57

Yeah. So because actually my mom so as you mentioned at the start, my younger brother, Adam's autistic himself, if he is younger than me. She's also a SEND teacher. She's worked in, specialist schools for a number of years. And I think so from that sort of personal and professional standpoint, being my mom and and parenting Adam as an autistic young person, I think I've just really learned a lot from her about the adaptability. Like, a lot of our young people in the network say, if you've met 1 autistic young person, then you've met 1 autistic young person. Like, don't extrapolate that for all autistic people or autistic young people. I think that's really important. So taking that into my work and working with young people like Lily on the network has just been it's been fantastic, but it's the thing the key learning from from her has been to never obviously, like, prejudge or, think that if one particular young person has had a particular trait of their behaviour or something, then it's not gonna be extrapolated for all young people. So example of that is a lot of young people have quite hypersensitivity to clothing, but Adam has hyposensitivity. So that is when you sort of have a lack of not lack of feeling, but, like, a lack of awareness sometimes. For example, if he had, like, pretty damp clothes on, he wouldn't necessarily bother him. He wouldn't feel cold, and that can relate to, like, feeling ill or unwell. Sometimes it takes a while for him to recognize, and everyone's sort of spectrum wheel, is different in terms of what their kind of traits mean. So she's taught me a lot about how to engage with young people as individuals.

Simon Currigan: 36:22

Now. It makes total sense. And I guess if you kind of, like, take that kind of comment and put it in another context, you wouldn't say, now I've met one woman. I know what all women like, or I've met 1 white person or one Indonesian. You gotta extrapolate that. We call that racism. Lily, what key figure or event or book have you read that's had the biggest positive impact on your approach to succeeding in school?

Lily Ashby: 36:43

So there's a lot of people I could talk about, but I decided to talk about, so at my previous secondary school, we were just coming out of lockdown. And my previous head of year at the time, I was struggling with mental health at this time. I didn't know that I was autistic, but she made the time to have a weekly check-in with me and make sure I felt comfortable in school and we weren't always talking about, like, how I'm doing in school subjects or stuff. Sometimes it would be just talking about something that we both loved like Totoro and stuff like that just to make me feel comfortable and that it made me see that school could be enjoyable if I wanted to. And there are there are people who believe in me and support me, and that kind of set me on the journey of who I am today and finally, like, understanding myself. But being able to feel more comfortable in school, it's just that little bit of understanding, that little bit of the safe space was just, really important and it kind of it gave me belief in myself when I didn't really have it, especially after lockdown. It was difficult getting back into school. I struggled with absenteeism, but those sessions really made the difference into wanting to come into school and knowing that there was someone at the school that if I felt uncomfortable or if I felt upset, whatever, I could go talk to them about it.

Simon Currigan: 38:12

And I think that's a really powerful way of ending the interview because the people who listen to the show are the adults in school who generally care about supporting kids. And you can do lots of things and you're not really sure that whether you've had an impact or not, but listening to you, just small accommodations, just a few chats actually made a big difference for you. And if you're listening to the show and you're doing those kind of things, keep doing it. I'd like to say thank you to Lily and Joss for giving us your time and sharing your knowledge and expertise about how to implement these resources in school and how to support autistic pupils. Thank you for your time today.

Lily Ashby: 38:46

Thank you.

Joss Lambert: 38:47

Thank you, Simon. It's been a pleasure.

Emma Shackleton: 38:50

This sounds like a really important project that's already having an impact in schools, and it's definitely worthwhile schools signing up.

Simon Currigan: 38:58

Absolutely. And as promised, you'll find direct links to where you can sign up your school to the autistic and ok program in the episode description.

Emma Shackleton: 39:06

So that's all we've got time for today. We hope you find the episode interesting and useful. And if you have, don't forget to rate and review us. It's a really small thing that you can do that makes a really big difference to us and how we can grow the podcast. And we can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets. Have a great week. Take care. Bye.

Joss Lambert: 39:27

Bye.