Emma Shackleton: 0:44

Do you have pupils with ADHD in your school that struggle to regulate their emotions successfully? If you do, you've picked the perfect time to listen to School Behaviour Secrets because this week, our guest expert, Abby Moehringer, is going to share practical ideas, tips, and strategies to help your students with ADHD get on top of strong emotions and stay regulated in class.

Simon Currigan: 1:10

Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. My name is Simon Currigan, and welcome to a brand new episode of School Behaviour Secrets. The podcast that, as I write this, is sitting unbelievably at '32' in the UK education charts, despite me doing my best to sabotage it with my rants about 'ripen at home' plums, jelly, and the number 7. So if you're still listening after all that, thank you very much. We appreciate you. We're not quite sure why you are still here, but we do appreciate you. Plus, you're finally making my mom proud of me, especially after that 1 incident in 1985 back at home where I was just allowed the time, you know, with the arm wrestling and the dirty pigeon and the spoons and all that spoiled jam and, you know, the acid burns on the kitchen carpet. You know, it's been a long road back. Love you, mom! I'm joined today by my cohost, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma.

Emma Shackleton: 2:37

Hi, Simon.

Simon Currigan: 2:38

So question time.

Emma Shackleton: 2:40

I'd expect nothing else.

Simon Currigan: 2:42

So actually, it's 2 questions. The first is what activity or pastime do you find most calming and relaxing?

Emma Shackleton: 2:52

I'm not too good at relaxing, to be honest, but I absolutely love walking my dog in the park. That is my idea of relaxation heaven. Oh, and yoga. I love that too.

Simon Currigan: 3:05

That does sound relaxing. And the second question is, according to research by Fitbit on Brits, on us, when they got people to engage in a range of activities and measured participants' heart rates, biologically speaking, which pastime was the most relaxing?

Emma Shackleton: 3:24

Napping, meditating, stroking your dog? I don't know. I give up. What's the answer?

Simon Currigan: 3:31

Alright then. So knitting came top which an average lowered participants' heart rate by a whopping 18.75%. Fishing came second with a 10% decrease. Blogging and calligraphy came third, both at 7.5%, and painting came 5th, lowering participants' heart rates by 3.75%.

Emma Shackleton: 3:52

Oh, wow. I think I need to take up knitting. But do tell, how is this talk of knitting and fishing related to this week's episode?

Simon Currigan: 4:02

Simple. This week, we're sharing my conversation with Abby Moehringer about classroom strategies that we can use to help our students with ADHD stay calm and regulated. And, of course, having a slow heart rate is often correlated with being regulated. And as a bonus, Abby brought with her an extra special guest, her 8 month year old daughter, Dorothy, who I've gotta say right, she was absolutely adorable and was desperate, desperate to be part of the interview. So we'll get her back for her own dedicated interview on the show in a few years' time.

Emma Shackleton: 4:38

Oh, but just before we play that interview, I'd like to ask a quick favour of our listeners, please. Small actions can have a big ripple effect. So if you're finding School Behaviour Secrets helpful or useful, please consider sharing with a couple of your friends or colleagues in education. That way, you'll be helping us on our mission to reach other like minded individuals who also want to do their very best for the kids that they work with, and that will make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Simon Currigan: 5:10

And 2 last things before we get to the interview. The first is we've got some news about the podcast coming up, some big news. I'm not gonna say any more than that this week, but we'll talk about that next week, so stay tuned. And the very last thing is before we get into the information and strategies about supporting kids with ADHD and staying regulated in class, we've got another really helpful free download that you could use to support your students or your own children if you're listening as a parent. It's called How To Help Children Manage Anger And Other Strong Emotions. The guide gives you an approach to helping your student understand, recognise, and manage strong emotions successfully. It shares a method that's evidence based, walks you through how to use the approach step by step, and even comes with some printables to download and print out to support your work.

Emma Shackleton: 5:58

And what is that approach?

Simon Currigan: 6:00

Oh, that'd be telling. You've gotta download the guide to find out.

Emma Shackleton: 6:03

Uh-huh. I see what you did there. Building tension and mystery. So go ahead and grab your free copy of how to help children manage anger and other strong emotions today. Check out the link in the episode description for this podcast. All you've got to do is open up your podcast app, check the description, and tap directly through. And now here's Simon's interview with Abby Moehringer.

Simon Currigan: 6:29

I'm super excited to welcome Abby Moehringer to the show today. Abby works as a BCBA in America who supports teachers in their classroom with challenging behaviours. She was a special education teacher for over 10 years before moving into the role of behaviour specialist. Her goal is not to put more on your plate as a teacher, but to make sure the right things are on it. Her blog at mrsmoesmodifications.com is full of behaviour tips, and her podcast called Autism Academy 360 includes episodes about supporting pupils with SEND and behaviour in school and focuses on looking at underlying needs and strategies you can use to support your neurodivergent kids.

Abby Moehringer: 7:07

Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Simon Currigan: 7:10

It's an absolute pleasure. So today, we're gonna focus on ADHD and strategies and ways we can change the classroom and support our students for ADHD to really do their best in the classroom. But I wanna start by asking you, why is it that students with ADHD often find it difficult to stay regulated in their classrooms? What's happening in the condition that kinda drives that?

Abby Moehringer: 7:32

Yeah. There's a few things that are causing this. So a lot of times, students who have ADHD can have a sudden change of emotion. So they're easily agitated, excited. They can have a wide range of emotions. So that in and of itself can force them to become dysregulated. I also like to always think that there's a skill deficit instead of just blaming it on a condition. So maybe they have not yet learned some regulating strategies that are going to help them when they have these change of emotions. So I also just think that sometimes students with ADHD might not be at baseline in your classroom because they might have sensory overload because of things like too many, sensory stimulating things in the classroom, like posters, bright colors, different things like that. So that can actually be leading to some of the difficulties in staying regulated.

Simon Currigan: 8:26

So in terms of then, supporting them in class, essentially, what we're saying is there are some underlying differences about the way their brain functions and how they process the world and how they interact with the environment, which means if we don't kinda make adaptations, we just continue teaching the way we've always taught, then it's gonna be difficult for our students to make progress. Is that kind of where we're going?

Abby Moehringer: 8:48

Exactly. Exactly.

Simon Currigan: 8:50

So how can those kind of, like, underlying difficulties and the way they interact with the environment and process environment and the, you know, the sensory differences. How can that make it difficult for a student with ADHD to function well in the classroom? And I don't just mean sort of academically, and I'm thinking here, like, emotionally and socially.

Abby Moehringer: 9:09

Yeah. I think socially is a huge piece of it because for so many reasons. So say you have a student and they are playing with their friend and they're just impulsive. They put their hands on one another just because something happens and they're so impulsive, and it tarnishes their relationship a little bit. But they don't mean to do it, but it can impact friendships because they also don't pick up on social cues. They might have some excessive talking and even when they're engaging in, you know, that social reciprocity, they are going to have some big emotions. You know? They're, again, easily excitable, easily frustrated. So that is also gonna come out when they are engaging with their peers.

Simon Currigan: 9:49

So with kids with ADHD then, it's not necessarily they have difficulties with social understanding like you would see from our autistic students, but it's how they respond in that kind of stimulating, exciting social environment that can create the difficulties so they can get overexcited, maybe say things that don't mean. Is is that the kind of thing that we're talking about?

Abby Moehringer: 10:09

Oh, yeah. I think that's definitely part of it. I do think that they miss social cues sometimes just because they might not be attending to the facial features and things like that. They might be distracted by something else. So I think that sometimes that they might miss it, but only because they're not paying attention. Yes. There is a difference between the difficulties that students with autism have and students with ADHD, for sure.

Simon Currigan: 10:28

And when we think about how they're working in the classroom, how they're attempting their tasks, working alongside their peers. How does ADHD impact there?

Abby Moehringer: 10:37

This is a good one. So students who have ADHD are going to struggle with repetitive tasks, having to do the same thing over and over, which we have a lot in the classroom because we have to practice the skills over and over. We know it's good to have predictable schedules, but this can be really troublesome for them. And then it leads to maybe some impulsive behaviour, maybe they're getting their peers off task. They also struggle to attend for a long period of time. And when they engage in these behaviours, then it results in some negative interactions with teachers, which we see a lot. You know, they're told that they need to be redirected. They might, have some punitive consequences. And this is kind of like a cycle that they engage with, which can ultimately lead to, impacting their academics.

Simon Currigan: 11:23

And what we have to appreciate for these children is I hear a lot of teachers say, well, they know what to do. They're choosing to do the wrong thing. That's not happening here, is it?

Abby Moehringer: 11:31

No. No. And it's so hard because it looks like they are purposely doing it. I think that sometimes ADHD is almost like an invisible disability because it's not as outward. It looks like sometimes, yeah, they can attend and sometimes they can't. And that can be really, really frustrating for teachers, especially when they're saying, I gave them x, y, and z chances. I can't keep doing this, and I can understand how frustrating that is.

Simon Currigan: 11:58

So let's think about keeping kids regulated because I know that's an issue that lots and lots of teachers talk about with, you know, trying to support their ADHD students. What proactive things can we do? And what proactive classroom adaptations and strategies can we use to support our students with ADHD?

Abby Moehringer: 12:15

I think the number one, most important one, is to teach these regulation skills. And I think that this is kind of a new idea and a new concept because it's not something, at least when I went to school, we never talked about this. We never talked about different strategies like calming strategies, mindfulness, grounding yourself, but it's so important to teach this. And you can teach it to your whole class, teaching how to identify emotions, what to do with them when they feel them, and just help these students to understand that it's okay to have these feelings, but it's not okay to act out. I think about myself even as I was a gen ed typical student, and I have a lot of anxiety now. And I think and wonder if I was taught some of these skills when I was in elementary school about how to regulate my emotions, how it would have affected me as I got older. So I just think that it's gonna help more of your students, even the ones that you might not think need it. So that's my number 1 tip.

Simon Currigan: 13:13

So when I talk to teachers, I think the audience that's listening to this podcast will understand what mindfulness is. But can you give us any tips in terms of I know a lot of kids with ADHD find mindfulness and grounding techniques kind of difficult to access. Could you just talk us through a little bit about what mindfulness might look like for a child with ADHD and what our expectations might be around that and grounding. And and grounding is maybe a term that some listeners are coming to for the first time. You could just talk us through those.

Abby Moehringer: 13:38

Yeah. Yeah. So it's just really about being present. You know? And so mindfulness is really being present in the here and the now. And grounding, I like to think of it as really realizing what's around you. And I always think of it as, like, putting my feet on the ground and just feeling the ground and just making sure I'm here. I'm not looking to the future. I'm not looking to the past. I am looking around at what's all around me, my senses, you know, what I see, what I hear, what I taste. And for students with ADHD, again, this is really hard. And the way that I support them with this is I make it visual. So I give them an additional support to do this because even just hearing, if you have, like, a recording, there's lots of those out there. You can go through mindfulness on YouTube and find it. But this can be challenging because it's only one way. And if they're looking around and they see something interesting, they're gonna get distracted. Right? So I like to make it really visual. So however you might do it for your students, you can have little cards that have breathing strategies. You can have pictures for what different grounding techniques you're doing. But I think that visuals is so important and will really support your students with ADHD.

Simon Currigan: 14:48

Absolutely. Because if their focus isn't directed to something that's slightly stimulating or interesting, then it's naturally gonna find its way to something else. I think we should say, actually, we're also joined by your daughter today who's desperate to be part of the interview. What's her name?

Abby Moehringer: 15:03

Yes. Her name is Dorothy. She really wants to be a part of this.

Simon Currigan: 15:07

So to bring back to schools, what if despite our best efforts and we're using and we're teaching these regulation strategies and grounding techniques and mindfulness to to our student. What if we see them in the classroom and we see that despite that, they're still becoming more and more dysregulated? What can we do to help them? What steps should we take?

Abby Moehringer: 15:23

Yeah. I think this is a great question, and it's obviously gonna be specific to your student. But before we even talk about that, I wanted to just talk about that there's different levels of being dysregulated. Right? So I think that this is something sometimes we're like, oh, I just need one tip for when they're becoming dysregulated. But you can be agitated, and then you can be all the way to violent. And the example I use of that is if you're agitated or a student is agitated, they might be tapping their pencil. Right? Just that might be their trigger or their warning sign. And then they're getting a little bit more dysregulated and they break that pencil. And then you don't intervene, and then all of a sudden they're throwing their pencil, maybe tipping over the table. So there is a spectrum of it, I guess, you could say. And depending on where they are is going to depend on how you intervene.

Simon Currigan: 16:11

So just to unpack that, are you saying that it's not whether the student's regulated or dysregulated? It's, in this case, how dysregulated or heightened. That that's the kind of language you'll be using, how much they are dysregulated.

Abby Moehringer: 16:24

Yes. Exactly. Because you're going to intervene totally different when they are tapping their pencil than when they are explosive tipping over their table. Right? That's gonna look very different. And if you were to intervene the same way, you might make the situation worse. So just for an example, obviously, it depends on the student. But if that student is agitated, they might just need a redirection. They might just need you to say, oh, this is what we're doing right now, and some kids can get right back around and get right back to it. They might need something like a little bit of adult support, so maybe you can sit with them and they're just getting a little frustrated, working through whatever problem they're on, and they can get through it with just a little bit of adult support or even a quick break, regulate, and come back in. But when they're more aggressive, they're not going to be able to, you know, use their higher order thinking brain. So you're gonna have to do a lot more coregulating, which might look like taking some deep breaths, giving some space, maybe even removing the task at hand if necessary. And, obviously, those are very different things from and it's gonna look very different when they're agitated or aggressive.

Simon Currigan: 17:31

You're coming in with support here, aren't you? We're not talking about rules. We're not talking about expectations. We're not telling them what to do. What we're trying to do actually is is attune with them and kinda bring those strong emotions kinda back under control, get them regulated together. This isn't kind of a me versus you situation.

Abby Moehringer: 17:51

Yes. Those power struggles are you know, there's no place for power struggles. No one wins in a power struggle. It's so important to be supportive of these students. And it's really even when they're agitated, it's not a time to remind them of the punitive consequences because that is just going to make them more frustrated, you know, even though it's so tempting to do that. And that might be how we grew up, so people want to, you know, do what they know. But it can lead to more behaviours.

Simon Currigan: 18:18

One thing that comes up in our work when we're working with schools and talking to to teachers that often sparks issues or problems or difficulties for kids with ADHD is lunch times. Right? That big hour of kind of unstructured time. Are there any specific strategies or approaches that you've found work well to supporting kids outside? Break times are busy. They're exciting. They can be emotionally charged if they're playing games. Mhmm. You know, winning and losing. What works well to support kids with ADHD?

Abby Moehringer: 18:47

Yeah. So I think that the number 1 is being really clear on expectations. So even though, you know, you're if you're at the end of the year, you need to continually be reminding them of expectations prior to going out. So letting them know, you know, this is what I expect from you. This is what you can do if you are getting upset by a student, you know, going over some of the strategies that you have together and then tying that back to, a reinforcement system. So how if they have a good day, how is that going to get reinforced? So is there a system in the classroom? Does that student have a particular one? Just making sure that you're reinforcing that appropriate behaviour. But when you are giving expectations, I always say only target 1 or 2 behaviours. So whether that is maybe they have difficulty with a peer, maybe they have difficulty coming in, you know, they run off when they wanna keep playing, whatever it might be, target only 1 or 2 of those. Because if you have a laundry list of expectations, students aren't gonna remember them. If they get do a couple of them, but not a few of them, how do you reinforce that? You know, you want to be really specific on what you're working for. And that doesn't mean that those other negative behaviours are okay. It just means we have to take baby steps in the behaviours that we are trying to change. So really targeting 1 or 2 behaviours at a time until they're mastered.

Simon Currigan: 20:11

And that priming, that pre tutoring before they go out is so important, isn't it? Because I think often you see a child with ADHD. They go out. There's some sort of an incident. There's an argument or something like that. And then in this country, there used to be a comedian called Harry Enfield. And he used to have this character. Like, someone would crash a car, and he would turn up and go, 'oh, you didn't wanna do that. What you should've done was break'. Yeah. Break after you crashed isn't very useful, but having the strategy preloaded upfront, actually, to bring it to top of mind before you need it, that's super powerful as well. So, yeah, I really like that. Anything we should avoid doing either indoors or outdoors? What makes it worse?

Abby Moehringer: 20:47

So I know that this can be sometimes hard, and I know that teachers sometimes take this a little bit to heart because they love their stuff. Right? We love our stuff. I know when I was going to college, I was told to put things everywhere on my walls. Right? Anchor charts everywhere. But really, less is best, and a clean and orderly classroom is going to do so much more than one full of posters. Even if you have a teacher desk and you have, like, piles of paper piled up, I always try to encourage teachers to put that stuff away in an orderly place because that, even though it might not be impacting you as a neurotypical adult, it could be really impacting your students, especially with those with ADHD. Another one is to avoid long, multi step directions. So your student might be be hearing the very first thing, which is go back to your desk. They get there, and they're like, oh, what is the next step? I have no idea. She gave four more steps. I can't remember. If you have to give directions like this, I always suggest using visuals. So I love having visuals and putting them on the board. So if you have three different directions, making some visuals that they can go up there, and that can be really helpful. It also helps you because you don't have to repeat yourself over and over and over.

Simon Currigan: 22:02

Not just for the children with ADHD, but there's a lot of kids in the room that would benefit from those visual reminders.

Abby Moehringer: 22:06

Yes. I suggest doing this with supplies. I love seeing this in the art room, especially when they have them because they're always using multiple supplies. That's a really good one. And then when our students have a behaviour, something that could make it worse is telling them, you know, you shouldn't be upset. You know, it might be a minor thing to you or me, but it's huge to the student. And I think that's hard for us as teachers to sometimes remember how big some things feel when you are a student, a child. They feel really big. And to tell them that they don't feel upset is, you know, doing them a disservice because they're still gonna feel those emotions whether you tell them to not be upset because they can't help feeling those emotions, but they can help their behaviour afterwards. So that's what we really need to do is teach them, -okay, you're feeling upset, but what could you do instead?

Simon Currigan: 22:57

And I guess as well, if you're feeling a really strong emotion and then an adult kind of dismisses that, there's actually a danger that you might walk away from that with some shame or saying to yourself, what's wrong with me for feeling on that? Because the adult didn't kind of validate that or recognise that. They just moved swiftly on.

Abby Moehringer: 23:13

Yes. Yes. That is so true. And, you know, they obviously already know that they're different. You know, if you have ADHD, you know you're gonna be different than your peers. Even if you don't know you have that diagnosis, you recognise that you're different. And then to be told that you shouldn't feel this emotion, again, brings that shame, and that can lead to mental health struggles possibly down the road.

Simon Currigan: 23:34

And, of course, just before people write in, and I get this, from time to time, there is a difference between showing empathy and agreeing with what children have done. We, we do appreciate that that you just made that clear. Can you tell me about a success story that you've seen in school using these kind of proactive approaches?

Abby Moehringer: 23:51

Oh my gosh. I remember this student. This is one of my first few years of teaching, And he was constantly running out of the building, running out of the room, and over little things. Like, I'd be like, oh, you know, that 2 +2 doesn't equal 5. Let's try it again. And he would get so worked up. He, once I was able to find him, he would be sweating and just completely dysregulated. So what we did is we, you know, had to really do a lot because running out of the building is obviously very unsafe. So we pretaught him calming strategies. So that's definitely we always wanna do it before the behaviour happens and when they're nice and calm. We put in a reward system, and I also put in a break system. So I did not want to take away his needing of a break because, clearly, he needed it. He needed to get out of the classroom, but we just needed to do it safely and in a better way. So we came up with a place where he could run to. It was a corner that I could see easily when I left the classroom, and he did a great job of running there instead of leaving the building. And I know people are probably gonna be thinking, oh, my gosh. You were encouraging him to leave the classroom? Well, no. You know, obviously, our end goal is to stay in the classroom if we have a calming corner taking a break there. But it was one of the building blocks. I know that I couldn't get him from stopping leaving the building to being in the classroom all day. So I was like, how can I get there? What's a baby step? And the first step was staying in the classroom and going to a place where it was safe because if he was just staying in the school and running around and I didn't know where he was, that's also unsafe. So my first step with him was to go to a safe place and or a targeted place, and it was really helpful. And we were able to build on from there, and that was I think about that student all the time because he was so impulsive and went from 0 to 60 and was extremely dysregulated when that happened.

Simon Currigan: 25:46

I think you make a really important point there that's worth unpacking about behaviour in general. And sometimes, to take your example there of going to a common place that's outside the classroom, a lot of teachers will listen to that and say, no. That's still wrong. That's still not okay. But you've gotta start from where the child is. If they're trying to leave the site, if at least they're in sight, in sight with your eyes as opposed to being in side school. But at least if we can see them and know they're safe, then then that is progress. And it's not about perfection. It's about taking steps towards a goal. It's about making progress towards the ideal. And sometimes that jump is just too big in one go. You've gotta start from where they are, understand their biology, understand the overwhelm and the stress, and actually think about how am I gonna get to my ideal destination in in a graduated way.

Abby Moehringer: 26:29

Right. You want them to be successful. You want them to realise that what you're doing is trying to help them and that they can find success. So you want them if you are saying, you know, you can't run out of the

Simon Currigan: 26:39

classroom, you have to be in here all

Abby Moehringer: 26:39

day, maybe it would work for a day, for you have to be in here all day, maybe it would work for a day. For the student, it would not. But maybe it would, but they're going to fail at that. They are going to realise that they can't do it, and then you might be even, you know, you can't run out of the classroom. You have to be in here all day. For the student, it would not. But maybe it would, but they're going to fail at that. They are going to realize that they can't do it, and then you might be even further back than you were at the beginning and have to really even, you know, back up even more, which you obviously don't wanna do.

Simon Currigan: 26:58

If you're a teacher or a parent actually listening to this podcast, what's the first step you can take today to start helping your pupils with ADHD stay calm and focused in school?

Abby Moehringer: 27:09

So I'm gonna give you and the listeners a link for a visual calming tool because it's so helpful. They're small, so you can take them with you. You can keep them in the student's desk. You can put them right in your bag if you're a parent and you're out on the road, and you can just give them to the student when they are feeling escalated a little bit. But make sure you pre teach them. So make sure that your students or your child knows what to do with them. And there's a few different examples in there, so they can pick which one works best for them.

Simon Currigan: 27:39

Perfect. What I'll do is if you can send me that URL, I'll put a direct link in the episode description. So if you're listening to this, all you have to do is tap on this episode in your podcast app as it's playing and then look at the text. Sometimes you have to tap like a little info button. Look at the text that goes with this podcast, and you'll be able to go straight through to that resource. And can you tell us more about how our listeners can find about your resources in general in your site and your podcast?

Abby Moehringer: 28:02

Yeah. Yeah. You can find me on any social media. It's mrsmoesmodifications. So, mrs_moes_modifications. It's the same everywhere. You can find me on my blog, which is mrsmoesmodifications.com. And, yes, I do have a podcast all about autism. I do it with a co host, and we talk all about strategies for having students with autism in your classroom.

Simon Currigan: 28:26

Finally, Abby, we're out of time, but I ask this of all our guests. Who's the key figure that's influenced you, or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?

Abby Moehringer: 28:37

Yeah. I think the biggest book that's had the most impact, and I recommend this to every teacher, is called What Happened to You by Dr Bruce Perry and Oprah, and it focuses more on trauma. But I think it's important for all teachers to read because students who have trauma can present as having ADHD. And just understanding, you know, why that has happened to them, changing your mindset around behaviour a little bit, and understanding what happens with the brain that it's not you know, students aren't actively choosing to be difficult and just how you can have such a huge impact in students' lives even if you only have them for a year or even if they're only in your classroom for part of the day, you can have just such a huge impact. And it's also a really neat book because they talk back and forth, so it's like a conversation. So it's a really easy digestible read.

Simon Currigan: 29:29

That's brilliant. I'll definitely check that out. Abby and baby Dorothy, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. You've shared loads of really practical ideas and strategies. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

Abby Moehringer: 29:39

Well, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Emma Shackleton: 29:41

Do you know what? Abby's ideas were so practical and usable in that interview.

Simon Currigan: 29:47

I know. She's got an amazing website as well full of ideas and loads and posts that if you're interested in behaviour or SEMH, you should definitely go and check it out. I put a direct link in the show notes so you can tap straight through. And baby Dorothy, obviously, you couldn't see her because it was an audio podcast, but she was definitely the star of the show. She was so cute.

Emma Shackleton: 30:08

Oh, what a sweetie. If you find today's episode useful, don't keep it to yourself. Let your friends and colleagues know by using the share button on your podcast app. You can either message them directly about this episode or share it straight to your socials. And then the information and the ideas get spread and do as much good in the world as possible.

Simon Currigan: 30:29

And that's it for today's episode. Have a

Emma Shackleton: 30:31

brilliant week, and we can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets. Bye for now.

Simon Currigan: 30:36

Bye.