Simon Currigan: 0:45

Hi there. My name is Simon Currigan, and welcome to today's episode of School Behaviour Secrets. In this episode, we're gonna focus on the surprisingly powerful impact that adaptive teaching can can have on classroom behaviour. I wanna talk about classroom behaviour today. We're not just thinking about the behaviour of the whole class, but also thinking about the behaviour of individuals who might have special educational needs or specific SEMH needs. But before we get to that, don't forget if you're finding school behaviour secrets helpful, make sure you like and subscribe us and share it with other teachers and school leaders so this information can reach more people. It's the quickest and cheapest way of supporting the show because it will cost you just 30 seconds. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and of course students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. So to help navigate us through this topic, it's a great pleasure to welcome George Athanasiou to the show who's going to guide us through this topic. George is a renowned educator and speaker recognized for his expertise in delivering innovative and dynamic educational strategies. With a distinguished background as a head teacher and local authority adviser, George is a trusted authority on inclusive education, particularly in SEN and SEMH. He's developed a unique approach to empowering educators and school leaders to prioritize well-being and drive outstanding results. His expertise includes leadership development, inclusive education, curriculum design, and school performance improvement with a focus on supporting students with educational additional needs, ensuring everyone is included. George, welcome to the show.

George Athanasiou: 3:25

Thank you very much, Simon. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for welcoming me this morning. This is very exciting.

Simon Currigan: 3:31

I think it's gonna be a really interesting topic and a really practical one that our listeners and viewers will be able to take away strategies and ideas actually they can implement straightaway in their classrooms to make a difference for their kids. But I think we should start with the basics and define our terms because we have teachers listening from around the world, and the UK has shifted its language on this in the last few years. So I wanna start with what is differentiation, what is adaptive teaching, and why the language shift?

George Athanasiou: 4:04

Okay. Absolutely. So I think really education, we love a bit of change, don't we, Simon? We change from, this language and this and trying to get your head around all of the different words that we use. And I've been in education for so many years. We started with differentiation, we moved to variation, and now we use the word adaption. Differentiation for me is about where a teacher would plan 3 activities and they would tell the red group that you're going to be doing these activities, and green group and so forth would be doing these ones, which actually puts that artificial ceiling on so much learning. We then moved into variation, which was a whole approach to actually the children could now choose which activity they wanted to do. But of course again putting a ceiling on that learning. Now I'm looking at adaption and when I work with practitioners and I go into schools, using ideas for adaption comes back to that initial thought of understanding. So when a practitioner understands a pupil's needs they can then adapt the learning to meet that pupil's needs, which sounds quite straightforward, but actually sometimes we assume we know what learners can do and what learners need to be able to do. But offering the same learning objective to the whole class and including pupils through their adaptive approaches, which could be a physical, it could be an activity adaption, That is what actually will bring success to all of the learners. I'm a huge advocate for challenging everybody, not just challenging higher achievers, but ensuring that every single, learner has got challenge attached to their day to make them successful in the classroom, of course.

Simon Currigan: 5:54

You're, so you're obviously a big supporter of adaptive teaching and and and taking a flexible approach to teaching, which we're gonna talk about as well. So for you, we've spoken about kind of like in in abstract terms, but what does that look like when it's done well in the classroom, both the adaptive bit and the flexible teaching part?

George Athanasiou: 6:14

It's seamless integration, I would say. It's we're including pupils and it's I'm not going to use that phrase again, but that seamless integration of understanding and being flexible for the teachers being able to just assess pupils needs rapidly and adjusting their instruction in the moment to meet the needs of the of the pupils. So this could be altering the pace or maybe the content, breaking down information into blocks, scaffolding, recognising when pupils are struggling a little bit, but rather than waiting until it gets to a struggle, actually thinking gosh you know I understand this pupil, I know their needs and I'm going to offer some enrichment opportunities straight away so that people feel successful. That is absolutely, you know, huge. And it really were advanced learning and advanced learners. But you know, in practice it's about the teacher noticing the pupils are struggling. You know notice sorry, noticing that they're struggling with a concept and then quickly re teaching. So you know, change happens when the adults change, and you know they're the best teachers that I work with. Those teachers that are prepared to be flexible and recognize that they were wrong first of all, and they're going to try something else and that didn't quite work. Using technology, you know, is a great way of adapting learning, understanding whether a pupil is a visual learner, an auditory learner, you know, that that really can offer that additional engagement for for pupils.

Simon Currigan: 7:56

Yeah. I just wanna unpack a couple of things you said there that are really interesting and that do impact on what we're gonna talk about next. And the first is, for you, where is the line between are people becoming having difficulty with a task, but having challenge and having to work through that challenge and reaching kind of like an emotional frustrated level where it's just not working for them, then you might get, you know, frustrated behaviours or emotional behaviours as a result. How how do you pitch that, and how do you recognize the difference? Because there's an important distinction there, isn't there, between challenge and being overwhelmed.

George Athanasiou: 8:36

Of course. Let's go with a classic, a good old smile, Simon. If a child is engaged and they're smiling and they're responding in a way that feels regulated, then straight away you feel, yeah as a teacher I teach a couple of days a week. I absolutely love doing this. And I've got a huge range of children with all varying needs. And actually I know my class really well and I recognize because I've taken the time to build that relationship. I do a lot of preempting, so not assuming, but just trying to understand what's gonna keep this pupil from regulating themselves really well. That is just so important. So I've challenged a pupil. I'm kind of going to know the limits without putting that ceiling on and asking them to be in control of their learning. So encouraging the pupils to say to me, you know, oh, would you like to go the next step now? And almost that little bit of, I want to use a nice Essex word now, banter. But having that relationship with the pupil to say, oh, I don't think you're gonna be able to do this. You know, oh, yes, mister I, I can, I can, I can? And then before you know it, you know, they become successful in that. When they start to tense up and I read their body language or my co teachers are reading their body language, then I'll go for a distraction technique of some kind. And and that can be really, really beneficial. But, you know, I take the point about the difference between challenge and pushing it up ultimately. You know, and children love to be challenged. When they're engaged, they feel motivated, and you just get that sense, don't you, that energy?

Simon Currigan: 10:19

I think it's worth reinforcing as well as something else you said earlier that's really important that if the lesson isn't working, then it's time for you as the adult to kind of assess that and do a course correction. And one of the things that I see often, and I I don't know if this your experience as well, but in lessons that aren't working, I sometimes see professionals sticking rigidly to the lesson plan anyway. And I wonder what's behind that, and and and what qualities do you need as a teacher to actually assess that this isn't working for my kids and that I need to do something different?

George Athanasiou: 10:52

So the best lessons are the ones that change. So as a teacher, we start off and we think this is how I, I want it to happen. But, actually, I I would say, you know, my best advice would be focus on the outcome and let the journey happen organically. Let the children decide how they're going to reach that outcome. Let the learners decide and craft that journey. As I say, the best lessons are the ones that are completely off the page. And as a teacher, you have to be confident in that. You know, you've qualified, you've trained, you are in in charge of that learning. Someone's believed in you and given you that opportunity to be the teacher of those children and actually, you know, just just run with it. What's the worst that's going to happen, really? You know, we don't do things for other people. We do these things for the children. When I say that, what I mean is we don't do things for, the bureaucracy, if you like. We don't do them for Ofsted coming in. You know, we are offering learning materials for our children. So it's really important that they craft the journey. We learn so much in Early Years. The Early Years practitioners really do understand what learning through play is, for example. And, you know, I recommend that we just as as teachers that maybe are in key stage 2 or 3, you know, go into an early year setting and just spend a few hours and see how it's done, because you really will learn how to adapt a learning journey for, you know, a whole range of learners, to to ensure that you meet the outcomes and ensure success for all learners.

Simon Currigan: 12:38

When teachers aren't adaptive or they aren't flexible to the kids' needs in the way that you're kinda describing here, What's the impact on behavior in the classroom? What do you see?

George Athanasiou: 12:50

So I I observe a lot of teaching. I notice a rapid decline. And something I I look at when I observe teaching in lessons is the cha cha cha, the children choice and challenge. They're the 3 things I look for and one of those is the children. So actually, how well are practitioners meeting the needs of pupils? How well are the teachers understanding the needs of pupils and therefore, you know, meeting those those needs. I would say that, you know, ultimately, if children are bored and, are motivated, then the lesson declines rapidly because children will be disruptive, children will dysregulate, and then you're going to think, gosh, if only I'd invested some time to invest in that pupil. And I I can give you a few ideas and some strategies that I would recommend to all practitioners to avoid this happening. But you know I think it's game over at that point. If your lesson starts to tail off, you know then you need to be thinking quickly. How can I turn this around? How can I change this? And that comes from great preparation. I could use the word understanding again. The more you understand your learners, the more you understand your pupils, the more successful your teaching is going to be. And really focusing on that outcome. Let the lesson happen organically. You know, huge important message. So in summary, really 3 three main things will happen, Simon. Disengagement, frustration, inequity, I say would be the 3 things that can happen as a result when a teacher isn't meeting the needs of pupils. So pupils that aren't challenged, unsupported, they could become disengaged from that whole learning process, they begin to feel frustration and they're the pupils who are struggling, maybe feeling frustrated with themselves or the material, that's been offered. It might be too easy for them, too difficult, they're bored, etcetera. And then inequity where pupils of different abilities, of different learning styles, they're just all left behind or overlooked.

Simon Currigan: 15:02

And these are these are the classrooms where you do see the the adults and the kids getting frustrated with each other, and you start to see a gulf between them during those lessons, don't you? What I really like to actually just taking a step back, was you used the word investment. It's not wasted time. It's an investment in the success of the kids that you're working with. And a lot of teachers on there, they'll they're kinda clock watching. They see the time ticking down, and they feel like they've gotta cover certain beats in the lesson. But if the kids aren't with you, the kids aren't with you, and he's trying you know, it's not gonna work.

George Athanasiou: 15:33

I use the analogy. You you can't build a house on sand. You know, you're trying sometimes to put a roof on a house with no walls. You've got to build those foundations. You've got to build the structure, and the outcome is the finished product of the home. And I use this analogy quite a lot with, you know, a whole range of teachers, ECTs, experienced teachers. You know, it's okay to change. You know, we we don't like change as humans, but it's okay. We've gotta get used to this change. We've gotta get used to, you know, new pupils that are coming into our lessons, new needs that, you know, we may not be familiar with. You know, not wanting to go off topic here, Simon, but, you know, a lot of teachers have have come to me and said, oh, I've got a really naughty class, you know, the children are really naughty. And I think, oh, gosh, you know, this this year has got disaster and all over it because you're in the wrong mind frame straight away. You know, you've got to change your mindset. You know, this is about understanding the pupils' needs, the needs of the pupils. It's not about, oh gosh. These are naughty kids. Let's call the deputy head in for extra support here. You know, let let's let's meet the needs of these pupils.

Simon Currigan: 16:42

So why why do you think that it is that some teachers find this difficult? What challenges or can, I guess, also, maybe psychological obstacles stand in the way of them finding that flexibility and adaptability?

George Athanasiou: 16:58

I think really, Simon, it comes down to limited training or limited experience. I've been very fortunate. I've worked with lots of different settings in my role as, Local Authority Advisor. I've been into some, you know, some very interesting provisions, and, you know, some teachers won't necessarily have experience. Maybe they've worked in the same school, in the same year group, with the same families that have just kind of come through. So I would say limited training experience, limited resources as well where teachers may lack access to necessary CPD for themselves and resources and materials. Time, you know how that comes back to us every single time. Time constraints. If I had 8 days a week, I'm sure I'd be far more effective. Who knows? But, you know, teachers are under a lot of pressure. They're under a lot of tight deadlines. We have limited this, limited that. There's a lot of demand from, you know, policy and there's a lot of demand from, you know, everyone's under pressure, aren't they? Ultimately, sometimes a bit of personal bias as well, where teachers hold assumptions in their head and that certain pupils abilities and learning styles. You know, I've taught a pupil, you know, that has autism before, so it's going to be the same. You know, it's okay again to spend some time investing in what that specific pupil requires. And you know I would never say an autistic child. I always say a child with autism or a child with SEMH needs, a child with special needs. And you know it's about adapting your your mindset. Again, we've said this a few times now, but you know let's not underestimate the curriculum demands. You know, it seems to be art. That's a topic area that's got 3 things for 4 years of key stage 2 teaching. But actually the curriculum is really quite demanding. It can be. And those excited, ambitious teachers, they're the ones that may feel the pressure more, putting pressure on themselves. They want to stick to this curriculum and actually they want to expand it out and give the children this vast learning experience. You know, it's okay. It's okay because focus on those learning goals and let the journey happen organically.

Simon Currigan: 19:27

So what are some practical, effective strategies for adaptive instruction in a diverse classroom? Can you give us some sample how to's to use? I I wanna think at the moment about the whole class level sort of like in terms of whole class management rather than kids with specific individual needs.

George Athanasiou: 19:47

No. Of course. And I think it comes back to understanding initially. And again it's about understanding all of your class, not just those pupils that have maybe identified on the send register or are identified with, you know, particular diagnoses, But actually understanding every single pupil will make the classroom diverse and will give it and you will embrace that diversity hugely important. And I'm talking gender, I'm talking, you know, race, culture, the whole variety of diversity. Being flexible in your grouping would be my strategy number 2. So number 1 being understanding. 2 about flexible grouping, using flexible grouping strategies so that, you know, pupils aren't just, oh, you know, you're good at maths, so therefore you must be doing this harder challenge every single time. Well, why aren't we flexible? Why don't we give, you know, all of the children opportunity to seek all challenges? And that's why I liked that change from differentiation to variation, because actually the pupils had a varied approach to their learning. They could, you know, work to where they wanted to to to learn. But technology integration as well, a great strategy there for really supporting all pupils and the diverse classroom. Choice based learning, again, similar to the flexible learning, you know, that that just jumps out into my head about pupils accessing the choices that that they require. The good old fashioned scaffolding, you know, that always works, really, really well. Finding them with temporary support. Now, what I don't mean is gluing an adult to them. What I mean is giving them the independent skills, teaching them the skills to be independent, and that can be scaffolded, of course. But, you know, making sure that all pupils have access to scaffolding so that they're not struggling, and it just builds into their independence skills. Yeah, that would kind of be my my top ideas really. But thinking about the environment as well, I love an environment that's you know, colourful and really stimulating etc, but that's not for all pupils. You know, that can be a bit overwhelming. But not just using the classroom. How often do we take a lesson outside and actually go outside and, you know, really utilise the environment that is beyond the classroom walls. And I would caveat that as well with actually using cross curricular links to really embrace that diverse curriculum. So, you know, has anyone ever thought about teaching planets through the medium of dance, for example? You know, dance is a specialism of mine. I try and use the medium of dance for for lots of, you know, engaging activities because I think about some pupils that I teach in my classroom. And if I say, right, today, we're gonna do some writing activities, straight away, I can see these pupils just you know, they don't like writing. They don't enjoy it. That dexterity might not be the same. They've done all their finger gym this morning. They're ready to go, but writing doesn't work for them. However, if I think about the learning outcome, what is that end journey? And they're going to do their learning as a comic strip. Gosh, what if Ofsted come in? Oh my goodness, me. Well, you know, who cares actually, because the pupils will be achieving the outcome. They're going to they're going to prescribe their learning journey. And actually, the diversity of my classroom means that they're gonna be successful. They've met the learning objective and therefore they are, in their ability, gonna be crafting their own learning. And I'll often say to my year 2 class, you know, today, I want you to choose how you're gonna reach this end goal. And then they love it and I tell them about, you know, you're grown up now and you're gonna be doing this. And some children will do me a comic book strip. I had a little girl the other day that did me, she sang a song. She put lyrics together and created. It doesn't really matter as long as, you know, the children are learning what it is that the curriculum dictates they need to learn.

Simon Currigan: 24:03

I can echo that completely what you were saying about topic, especially when I don't know it's like a really niche example, but when I used to teach in pupil referral units so for those of you that are coming across that term for the first time, that's where children who have been promptly excluded or expelled from school kind of go next. We would I'd have all the kids in the room for the math lesson. They were more than happy to sit down and do some math. The minute English came out, it was writing. People were kicking off left, right, and center. Kids were leaving the room. So when we rebranded English as topic and we taught English and writing through topic, kids were really engaged. They wanted to learn about dinosaurs and and the day of the dead and stuff like that. You know, it's the same objectives just taught through a slightly different lens. So I've sort of crept onto kids with specific needs there. So what about the students? And I'm thinking here about kids with SEMH needs in particular. What might adaptive teaching look like for them?

George Athanasiou: 25:03

So the first thing I would, urge practitioners to consider, is your input session. If you have a very high functioning pupil, why are they listening to you doing the input that's, you know, that you've revised from yesterday? It's okay for them to get started. We need to come away a little bit from this traditional model of I'm the teacher, you're the pupils, everyone's going to listen to me for my 20 minute input. Then we do the activity, and then there's a plenary. I use the formula, and this is no rocket science here, but the pupils age per minute plus one is how long your input should be. But if a pupil is starting to dysregulate, that's because they're bored. And I mean that with the greatest of respects. But, you know, it's okay to accept that as a teacher. My lesson's boring. It might not be the lesson is boring, but it feels boring for the for pupils with their CMH needs. So what what can we do about that? I use a strategy of IDR, and that is ignore, distract, remove. So, let's say I'm teaching a lesson, the good old classic number bonds to 10, And, everyone's engaged for the first bit, and I've got a pupil that's starting to dysregulate. And I'm probably thinking at this stage, I could ignore them, or should I be setting them on their task? Yeah. I probably should be doing that. And then they're starting to tap, and they're tapping a pencil, and they found that 3 they found the 3 pieces of Lego under that unit that they've got, you know, and they're they're starting to fiddle and they're tapping the Lego blocks. And, you know, you're gonna ignore it to a point, but now actually what I'm doing is I'm listening and the other learners are listening to this pupil. So I'm then gonna distract them and I might ask them a question which might engage them back into the learning. Or I might say something like, oh, good. I'm glad you've got those Lego blocks. Could you go and get 10 more and put 6 red ones for me and work out how many yellow ones I need? So I'm distracting them. They're engaged in the learning, but they're now distracted. Oh, okay. Now the classic one that often teachers will use with distraction is where they give a little note to go next door to the classroom. Again, I would avoid that at this stage because they're now away from the learning. If they're doing their little blocks or their little Lego cubes as I described, I'm quite impressed. That's not bad. That's pretty razor sharp, those ideas for the morning. But what I would do is I would keep that element, of the distraction. You know, still focus learning. Then the third part of the IDR ignore, distract, remove. So this is then when I now need to think about a removal strategy. Has to be the last possible options, of course. So I mean, just remove from maybe the carpet space or the teaching input. Remove, the pupil. Maybe that's when you could send a little note to the next door or, you know, could you go on an errand for me? You know, that that could all be part of this.

Simon Currigan: 27:54

What would you say to teachers that or or parents watching that were saying the fact that you've got that far through the lesson or they've they've gotten that far through being dysregulated that they need to be removed says there's something not right with the lesson structure or the or the way we're teaching the children as individuals. What would your response to that be?

George Athanasiou: 28:16

Reflects as a practitioner. Why did that happen? What were the triggers? What were the and you know funny enough, Simon, I used to get quite frustrated when I'd have a specialist teacher come in and say to me, have you done a STAR analysis? And again, you know a STAR analysis for anyone that's not sure is where you look at the setting and the triggers and all of the, you know, the situation. I say, oh, I just want these people to listen to me. I just want them to behave. And actually, let's do that mind shift of I am the trigger, you know, I am the one that hasn't provided that lesson. So, again, my advice would be reflect on what went wrong in that lesson. Learn from those mistakes. You know, the best lessons are the ones that come out after mistakes. You know? What did I reflect? What did I recapture? What did I redo?

Simon Currigan: 29:04

So the opine this here is I'm in the situation I am in. I've it's reactive, but I've gotta deal with where I am right now. I can't ignore the child's emotional state. I need to do something to support them. Yeah?

George Athanasiou: 29:14

Mhmm. Breathe would be my first thing. Don't let it get to you. You're the adult. Again, you're the teacher. You're the one that's responsible for this. Breathe, and try and use my IDR maybe, as a way of engaging with that pupil. But then be thinking, okay. Let's have a reflective conversation, not a patronizing one, one that can't needs to meet the needs of the pupil. Keep it visual. You know, children love a Post it note. Now this is what happened first. This is this. And I was working with a pupil the other day. My lesson was a disaster. It was absolutely disastrous. My fault completely. I hadn't planned it properly in my head. It wasn't prepared. And I went through it with the pupil afterwards of, you know, how the situation happened. It was on a whiteboard, and we went through the the stages of where mister a started and and the pupil. And then I rubbed it out and that was forgotten. And the pupil really liked that kind of visual of, okay, mister a isn't upset with me anymore because, you know, they're they're very proud of their relationship that we have. Although, you know, again, I'm the adult, but, I make sure that the pupil knows that behaviors are this, this, and this, and I was wrong. I apologized, for that, but actually just wiping the whiteboard. The situation's happened. It's done. Forgotten. We move on from that. But giving the pupil choice as well. My cha cha cha I said about earlier, children choice challenge. Giving the pupils that choice to say, right. Actually, I think you're ready for learning now. You know, get them going. Be prepared. Get them get them moving. So visual aids are a hugely important tool. They offer that multi sensory approach. I was delivering a lesson the other day and we were talking about crocodiles and introducing this new story, and the pupil wasn't really listening. I had the book in front of me, a book not just a screen but an actual book, and the children was fascinated by the the pictures. And then I had a little bag and inside were some vice grains, and they were sharp like the crocodile's teeth. And it really offered that multisensory approach, which gave this particular pupil a real success to the lesson, and, you know, he was able to engage fully.

Simon Currigan: 31:28

What's the impact in the classroom when teachers do become more flexible in their approach and use these kind of adaptive teaching methods effectively?

George Athanasiou: 31:39

Ultimately, you'll get better pupil outcomes. You know, that that is the bottom line really. You'll have more engagement from pupils, this naughtiness that we were speaking about earlier on. So So you'll have a reduction in distraction and dysregulation. You'll have increased motivation. Pupils will be excited to come to school. I mean, it sounds a bit drastic, but therefore attendance could increase and improve. But you know what? Ultimately you've got an improved relationship. Pupils look forward to your teaching. They look forward to your learning. You're building that stronger relationship with your pupils, and then you know that just builds that understanding of pupils' needs and their strengths. And before you know it, you know, the pupil outcomes are exceptional. You know, the the the children are successful in your lessons. I'm sure that's what we all want. Right?

Simon Currigan: 32:32

Absolutely. Absolutely. So if you are a teacher or a school leader who's listening or watching this right now and you wanna get this right in your school, what's just the first step you can take to, to to use adaptive teaching techniques effectively so you do get that pupil engagement and you do see less behavior in the classroom that that is avoidable?

George Athanasiou: 32:57

So my key takeaways, ultimately, Simon, are breathe, think, try not to assume, and decide what the learning's going to be for that pupil. Allow all pupils to really take part in the lesson and engage. Listen to what the pupils are showing you, and that is the right verb there, but listening to what you can see before your very eyes. Take that time to understand pupils And just remember, it's it's one thing at a time. One thing at a time. You know, go off the page. So what? You know, do it. What's the worst that's gonna happen? You know, come back to a worst case scenario. Use the IDR. Use, that whole approach of ignore, distract, remove. When you're doing your planning, think about the best implementation, the cha cha cha, the children choice challenge. You know, they would be my key takeaways ultimately.

Simon Currigan: 33:55

And George, how can we find out more about you and your resources and how you support schools?

George Athanasiou: 34:02

So please follow my TikTok, seems to be the biggest and, most exciting social media platform at the moment which is eduguru.george. I put lots of bonkers ideas on there about bringing teaching off the page. Please follow me on there. My website of www.educationalconsultancy.net has ways of getting in touch with me. Please of course follow me on LinkedIn as well and connect with me. I love having conversations with professionals and practitioners, so you know please engage with me on through any of the social media channels. I'd happily just meet anyone for a coffee and just to chat. And George, you know, what do you think about this idea? Or I've got to teach this really tricky concept next week. How do I do that? You know, please get in touch with me. I'm happy to ping an email backwards and forwards or jump on a a call and, you know, engage with you. You know, absolutely no problem at all. Of course, stay with my blogs as well and podcasts like this. Hopefully, Simon, you're gonna welcome me back again for other topics and ideas. Who knows?

Simon Currigan: 35:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what we'll do is we'll put direct links to, your TikTok, your blog, your website, and everything. In if you're watching on YouTube, they'll be in the comments. And if you're listening to the podcast, all you have to do is tap on this episode and look at the episode description, and you'll find direct links to them there as well. George, we reached the end of the interview, but before we leave, we always ask one question of all of our guests. Who is the key figure or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on the way you work with children or young people?

George Athanasiou: 35:48

Rita Pearson. Every single time. Rita Pearson is the, TED talk that I'm sure so many practitioners have listened to. She talks about relationships, and if you forge good relationships with pupils, you will be successful. If you don't, it's gonna be a long and arduous year. And I couldn't agree more. So Rita Pearson has inspired me, no end. And I use that in all of my training that I offer out to any practitioners.

Simon Currigan: 36:17

George Athanasiou, thank you for joining us today.

George Athanasiou: 36:20

Thank you, Simon. A pleasure.