Simon Currigan: 0:45

Criminality and the growing impact of gangs on our pupils is something that affects all of our schools regardless of where we live and even the age of the pupils we teach. That's why in today's school behaviour secrets, we're going to explore the sometimes unseen impact of crime in our schools, how best to connect with our pupils at risk, spot the symptoms that there are issues that we should be aware of, and practical ways of supporting pupils at risk. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. My name's Simon Currigan from Beacon School Support, and welcome to this week's episode of school behaviour secrets. Today, we're gonna be looking at what we can do in schools practically to support pupils who are at risk of criminal exploitation. But before we get to that, I've got a quick request to make. Don't forget if you find school behaviour secrets helpful, make sure you like and subscribe us and share the podcast with other teachers and school leaders so this important information can reach more people. It's the quickest and cheapest way of supporting the show because all it will cost you is just 30 seconds. We've also got a free download that complements this episode. It's aimed specifically at school leaders, and it's called the exclusions checklist. Its purpose is to help you ensure every avenue of support has been explored before resorting to permanent exclusion or for supporting pupils who are on that path. It's written to help leaders make good decisions under pressure and use best practice to respond effectively to incidents of challenging behaviour. You can get it for free. I'll put a direct link in the episode description if you're listening to the podcast or in the comments if you're watching the video version of the show. To explore the topic of today's show, I'm very excited to welcome our 2 guests today, Steve Warner and Desmond Skyers. Desmond Skyers is the mentor lead at St Giles. He's a published author and motivational speaker and leads a team of facilitators as part of the SOS plus service, which we're going to explore to date. SOS Plus is a preventative and early intervention service that puts lived experience at the heart of combating child criminal exploitation, gang involvement, and serious youth violence. He's been instrumental in the development of this highly impactful full program, which provides one to one support for children and young people vulnerable to criminal exploitation. Desmond is passionate about this work due to his own lived experiences and his constant desire to want to give back. Steve Warner is currently the head of education programs at St Giles and St Giles Trust SOS Plus. His previous experience includes roles such as deputy head teacher at Luton in Hertfordshire, where he's demonstrated strategic leadership and has led on behaviour management, staff recruitment, quality assurance, and school improvement. Steve has a proven track record of implementing strategies to raise standards in schools and to improve student outcomes. Desmond and Steve, welcome to the show.

Desmond Skyers: 4:27

Good morning. Thank you for having us, Simon.

Steve Warner: 4:29

Good morning. Thank you for having us.

Simon Currigan: 4:30

Thank you for giving us your time today. I want to start by asking the question, how widespread is the issue of criminality and violence? How many of our students in our schools are impacted, And what kinds of criminality are they most likely to be exposed to?

Steve Warner: 4:48

I think I'll start off here, Simon. I mean, the the the simple answer is too high. Just briefly, just to sort of frame it within the national context. If we look at the youth endowment from beyond the headlines report, that came out in July, this year and looks at the trends, in violence affecting children. What we saw over the sort of 2010's was serious violent cases increased, spiking to 2017, 2018. Recently, as they have declined slightly, but we need to be really clear. Last year, 99 young lives were lost due to violence. There were 467 cases of children admitted to hospital with injuries caused by a knife. Within these headlines, yes, there are trends. We see that black children are overrepresented both as victims and perpetrators, 6 times more likely to be victim of homicide and twice as more likely to be arrested. Boys, we know, far more likely to be involved. I think the 22, 23, they're about 87% of victims were boys. We also need to look at the sort of violence against women and girls. That's becoming increasing issue, toxic masculinity, Andrew Tate, etcetera, etcetera. 3 out of 4 hospital admissions, last year, were for sexual assault were female. Then there's geographical concentrations, statistically those living in the poorest ten areas, 2 and a half more times likely, to experience violence. So yes, the trends are alarming. And, but I actually, I think, and where we position ourselves, we actually consider all young people to be at risk, even sitting outside of those trends and in our work, for example, we've worked with white middle class children. Wealthy parents, perhaps degree of, absenteeism from the parents, sometimes referred to this as teenage affluenza. And what we've seen is even those those those children, who perhaps sit outside, perhaps some of those, that sort of profiling, if you like, in terms of those most vulnerable, but we see these young people getting involved, in in in in gang involvement, drug dealing, county lines, female violence, girls in toxic relationships. So actually, this is where we where we come from, when we actually frame it, we consider all young people to be to be at risk. But I think it's also worthwhile when we actually look behind the data, the extent of that impact is really hard to measure as well because what these these figures don't include is, you know, they might highlight the physical heart, but they don't tell about the mental scars of loss, the witnessing violence, the coercion, intimidation. All of this is pushed against that backdrop of mainstream media, and that narrative where we become sort of socially desensitized, violence, county lines, young people are very much more that their exposure to these is very much normalized now for simply too many young people within our society.

Simon Currigan: 8:02

I think you made an important point that I'd I'd like to unpack a little bit if I might. There might be a lot of people listening to this thinking, this doesn't affect my school. I'm in a very middle class area. Our parents are doctors and teachers even. But often, those people are very, very busy. And you talked about affluenza, and often there's an issue around absent parenting because in in the professional classes because those professionals are so busy, and that leaves children open to influence from from gangs and criminality. I wonder if you could just talk more about that because this is this isn't just about, inner city areas. This this is a widespread problem. Yeah?

Steve Warner: 8:46

Absolutely. And I think it's absolutely key for those of us within education to move beyond the stereotypical, victim perpetrator. Perhaps I alluded to that the data suggests. And I think, you know, we need to bear in mind. We talk about this idea afterwards with these young people with money to burn. Again, young people we know like to experiment. We know the lure of drugs. We know expand expansion with gateway drugs, vapes, etcetera. And and it's important to highlight that those young people are absolutely vulnerable and as vulnerable to to to anybody anybody else, a particular profile of young person. I allude to the fact that and say this several times. I used to work with number of head teachers within the one of the home counties and used to talk about this, and more often than not. Some of those head teachers, when I would start to introduce this topic, you'd see heads go down, phones come out, iPads go out, almost a case of head in the sand. Spoke to one of those head teachers, following a recent session, and he basically said, great session, Steve. Really informative, but actually this isn't an issue for me. My sole concern is getting my boys in my school into the 6th form college. 6 months later, there was a fatal stabbing outside that school. That head teacher came back and said, okay. I get it now. I was right.

Simon Currigan: 10:13

It it sounds like it's kinda like one of those things that you don't realize it's a problem until it's escalated to a point where you can see it. It's like something that maybe goes on in the back, but it's kind of hidden away. And if we're not looking and and seeing what's happened and being active about supporting our kids, then then those problems can brew away. Is there I'm just curious. Is there anything about traits individual pupils or students might have that means they're more likely to be affected or sort of inducted by gangs or criminals that might make them attractive to gangs?

Steve Warner: 10:49

Absolutely. Actually, probably. I mean, Des, who's got obviously got that experience on the ground. Might be a good opportunity, Des, for you just to talk a little bit about, to come in a little bit here.

Desmond Skyers: 10:58

Oh, yeah. let's go back to what you said earlier about, it doesn't matter what community you come from. The risk is the same. The the glamorized nature of the gang culture, youth violence and knife crime, all our children are exposed to it. And it goes from just attraction all the way down to accepting, the gang culture. So one of the thing that we see and and and is clear to us is young people, that come from community that are underserved, they're they're they're targets because for the mere fact that the person who's doing the grooming, that person have similar experience and they are more able to interact with that young person because they can relate to that young person's need of belonging, of lack of resources, and so in in essence, what we are looking at, you know, children that want to feel belonging. They wanna feel a part of something. They wanna feel like they have the resources because if you notice and I don't know Steve can relate to this as well. You will see a young person come in the school and they will have this fake pocketbook. It's not a real Gucci book, pocketbook. You know, the handbag that they wear across at their church. And what it would do the the fake one. But they would host they will hold its soul like almost like a treasure to them. And the the young person now that is able to afford the real one, that young person is almost like a celebrity. So just to go back to the to your question, it's it's about, you know, wanna feel like they belong to something, wanna feel like they can afford something, wanna look like they have status and wealth. And just that type of that type of thing is the thing that kinda put a lot of our young people, at risk.

Simon Currigan: 13:00

You used an interesting word earlier. You used the word grooming, and a lot of people when they hear that word will think more around kind of sexual predators. But this is another form of grooming, isn't it?

Desmond Skyers: 13:12

Yes. It is. it's providing incentive for young people to support criminal activity. Basically, that's what it is. Because what you find is that, a older gang member plied the myth that if this young person get caught doing something, the system is not gonna do nothing about it. But if I get caught, something is gonna happen to me. I might go to prison for 5 years, 20 years, 30 years, whatever that looks like. But so the young person is incentivized. First, what they do? They target that young person without the young person knowing, and then they befriend the young person, and then they begin to provide gifts and, you know, incentivize, you know, change in friendship group, change in attitude. And these young people, what you find happen, eventually, they begin to disengage.

Simon Currigan: 14:01

It it actually sounds like a very cynical process. If you're on I just wonder if you do whether there is any evidence around whether kids with specific needs, I'm thinking like ADHD, autism, you know, those kind of conditions, whether we know anything about whether they're more likely to be targeted. I can imagine if you have something like a condition like ADHD where you might be more impulsive, not thinking about tomorrow, you know, more living in the now, whether that that might make you more susceptible? Yes.

Desmond Skyers: 14:34

It is. When we look at social, understanding, the desire for acceptance, Kids that have special need are more inclined to to move towards where they think they're getting that understanding from. All the understanding that they are getting, they are more relatable to that understanding. We work with, kids across the spectrum, and we find that kids that have special need, they are definitely at a high risk. Just for the mere fact that sometimes they are isolated, they feel alone, they feel they don't have friends, and and so on and so forth. So, yes, definitely, kids that have special need are most, most vulnerable.

Steve Warner: 15:16

. Just to pick up a little bit on what Des said there. Yeah, this talks about the that vulnerability. And more often than not, we're looking at those factors that marginalize young people. And we know that unfortunately, you know, many of young people with with with SCND, do find themselves on on on the periphery, both in society and also within education sometimes because, let's face it, many of them do struggle to access the the the curriculum. And and and and for some, it's a challenge around engaging within the school. We also look at, personal identity around young people and some of those young people that are struggling with perhaps their personal identity. There's the SEN people that perhaps may struggle to engage positively within the community as well. And that increases our sense of modernization, which of course then comes in, in bringing into education into schools as well. So what we find in terms of those traits, it's many of those those risk factors, if you like, that that that marginalize young people. And once a young person is marginalized, they look for that sense of belonging. And that's very much the beginning of the grooming process and that road. Our work is very much to stop that door open.

Simon Currigan: 16:29

And for people listening who also might be thinking that this is a secondary problem, predominantly teenagers. This is dribbling now down, and it has been for years actually, down into the the top end of primary. I don't know from my own personal experience, how damaging that can be. I wanna think about the impact of criminality in schools now, on the pupils, on their peers, on the schools itself. Steve, you've alluded to the very tragic end of someone dying or going to prison, but the impact is much wider than that, isn't it? Can you can you talk to that a little bit, please?

Steve Warner: 17:04

Absolutely. I mean Desmond articulates this really well. Desmond always uses the analogy of a ripple effect, and looking at how that stems initially, obviously within materialize within an education setting and also how that sort of extends out to beyond the community. What we start to see within an education setting, is that early disengagement, typically negative behaviours. We start to see sort of changing in friendship groups, lateness, sometimes attendance might become a little bit of an issue. Bear in mind as well that a lot of this exploitation actually happens beyond the gate, beyond the school gate. And again, it's that vulnerability for many of these young people to see them before school or after school. And for many, actually school represents sanctuary in that sort of safe space, if you like. So typically a flag would be that lateness, what's happening on the way to school? Did that actually even make it to school? What we then start to see, is is perhaps entering into perhaps a little bit of recreational drug, gateway drugs, vaping, etcetera. And young people start to see that need for sort of instant gratification. Typically, and my world comes up quite secretive as well in social media use within school. These are all sort of flags that we would encourage those working with an education setting to look for because actually, whilst I'm not saying that every young person who's late to school is at risk of being groomed, but what you need to start we need to start doing this joining the dots. Actually, if you've got a young person who's in year 8 and their friendship group is starting to change, they become a little bit engaged. Their behaviour deteriorated. They're late for school, spending a lot of time potential on social media. All of a sudden, the Gucci bag appears. Join those dots up, and actually, that's where we start to see some of those some of those flags, if you like. And they need to be the flags to inform early intervention within education setting. What we then start to see is behaviour increasingly manifesting out there in in in the community as well. I don't know whether there's anything you wanted to add to that, Des.

Desmond Skyers: 19:26

No. No. Just to just to kind of put the the ripple effect in structure form. So it's the attraction, the involvement, the participation, the identity, and then the acceptance, and they manifest themselves in the signs and indicator that Steve just, talk about. So a young person that is attracted to, I don't know, a certain type of lyrics, language, dress, you know, the the the type of friendship group, that young person, unconsciously, can become involved in an activity. Like, for example, someone who is targeting them, and they don't know they've been targeted, stop and says, why are you walking? Or where are you going? I'm going home. get in the car. I'll take you. I'll drop you off. But in that car, they might have a machete in the trunk. The driver might be known by police. A few blocks down the road, the police pull over the car. And here, this young person, innocent by all means, unconscious of what whatever this guy is involved with. Now this young person is involved with law enforcement activities. Then you have the the ripple effect continue down now because now the young person go to, go to jail. Another set of young young people now look at that young person as certain type of, you know, make no sense type of respect. So now that young person feel emboldened. And as a result of that, they begin to actually consciously participate in in, you know, criminal activity. And I know you you probably hear about the term postcode, and that is a form of identity. So they takes on that identity. And once they begin to take on that identity, then the next aspect of it comes into play. We should begin to accept the criminality gang activity as a mean, a viable mean for respect and status and wealth. And so that's kinda like the trajectory of this ripple effect from, the grooming and from, gang involvement with these young people.

Simon Currigan: 21:31

So what you're describing here is a very gradual process. It's not like someone has an epiphany overnight and decides to become a criminal. They're they're drawn slowly and gradually into that world. It's almost like a think about put it in psychological terms. So it's almost like an incremental commitment. They're they're moving towards a a lifestyle. We've we've talked a little bit now about the problem and the impact in schools. Now now let's talk about what we can do about it. And before we started recording, I was having a quick conversation with Steve and Desmond, and and we started to talk about some sometimes the best bits of a podcast happen before you start recording. Then we were talking about how the solution is not to parachute in motivational speakers who do a half day, then you tick this off your list. Brilliant. As senior leaders, we've done our bit to combat criminality. You've got a really interesting approach at SOS Plus. It's got a very specific approach to supporting kids at danger of being involved in criminality or are involved in criminality. Could you talk us through kind of practically how it works so people can get a feel for and understand?

Steve Warner: 22:33

Absolutely. So just just to pick up on that early earlier conversation. Yeah, there is no quick fix to this. They're sort of the here today, they're gone tomorrow, the tick box, thank you very much. Yep. Doesn't work. And actually can cause more harm than good. You know, and again, evidence suggests that that sort of scared stiff approach come in, talk, scare young people, it doesn't work. Again, draw on the YAF, their their youth violence toolkit, research, inform actually says it doesn't work, actually can have a negative impact. So what we do is we work with all education settings, primary, secondary, mainstream and alternative. And our approach is very much to see education as part of the solution. And actually, if we think about us as is within schools, we see our young people 35 plus hours a week. We know our pupils, we know our families, we know our communities that we serve, we know the peers of our young people, and we know what influences them. What other service has that level of access and that level of understanding? This is why we absolutely position ourselves to work with, those working within schools is absolutely key, particularly in that early identification. And this needs to start as we've alluded to before, way back down in primary because actually many of the seeds for these behaviors and these patterns of behaviors are sown year 5, year 6, sometimes even as young as year 4. And what we do is we actually utilize, an empathetic approach. Many of our our team, the team I'm fortunate enough to work with, have that sort of that lived experience or that that shared experience that many of these young people face. We're able to facilitate both accurate and relevant information by someone who's actually been there. And they've many of our team, they've had that experience of adversity. They've lacked that sense of belonging. They've gone looking for that, that identity, if you like. They've also been involved in in in criminal activity. Many of our team. But what they set about, it's not about glamorization, it's about that mindset change, raising awareness of violence, vulnerability, exploitation, and essentially working with young people to make informed and safe choices, safe for them, but also safe for those around them as well. And key to our work, yes, it's about information giving, It's not about scaring, it's about giving relevant information. Also, it's about working and building those trusted relationships, and again, use that word empowerment. We all know that if you tell a young person to do x, they're gonna do y. But actually, if you empower them to make a considered choice, actually, do you know what? In a lot of cases, they're gonna go down the x as opposed to y. And what we start to do is also look at the broader educational branches of our work, looking at how the work can impact on people attendance, behaviour, giving that sort of sense of belonging, and developing sort of pro society attitudes, as well as assisting with sort of mental health, well-being, and and developing that sort of broader safeguarding practice and supporting education settings within that.

Simon Currigan: 26:05

I'd I'd be interested in learning I can imagine some young people being resistant to this, and I'm wondering how you overcome that. If you've got the influence of people who are selling them belonging and a lifestyle that they're getting hooked into, how do we then sort of I can how do we overcome that? What's your approach?

Steve Warner: 26:31

I think it comes with that that that empathy. And that approaching, the challenges, if you like, from a different lens. And if I go back to my time in school, I have great relationships with an awful lot of the young people. But I was a white male from a very different background to walk around in a suit and also was in a position of, let's use the word, authority. And actually, there was that inherent resistance. Yes. We yeah. We had those really positive relationships, but actually deep down, did I know their world? Did I understand their challenges? And that is when, we go back to sort of 2018, when actually I first started working with Desmond and actually started working with Desmond in the setting I was in to look at and tackle the problem from this different angle, from that different lens. And what Desmond was able to provide was a very different angle. And he was able to offer that relatability, that empathy, as well as a much more enhanced knowledge and understanding of the issues and challenges that these young people faced. And what we are able to do, and Des did this fantastically well, and this is the foundation for much of our work within St Giles today. We've used that relationship to start to break down the barriers. And if we look at a lot of the conversations in schools today, there's a lot of conversation about firm strict and what have you. And increasingly, clearly in the new political agenda, questions, is that starting to soften now? Do we actually need to get under not the behaviour that we see, but what actually sits underneath that behavior? The only way you're gonna get underneath that is starting to engage with and understand these young people more.

Desmond Skyers: 28:14

Right, so, again, it's it's it's about the relatability, your ability to relate, coming and when we talk about cultural competency, what we are actually talking about is understanding where that young person is coming from, understanding your own vulnerability when you were their age, and what drove you, what pushed you, what pulled you into criminal, gang exploitation. Now just to to make make a point clear, the school and we have to give school big credit because I'm a I'm a big supporter of education. I believe education is the key, and that's what saved me. That's what turned my life around. So I know that education is the key. The school do provide a lot of support for their students, for their pupils. So the the SOS service is a added support that the school's use who have us in their schools employ in support of this case. Now let me just say, something about relatability. Relatability give the young the young people someone that they can talk to, that they believe, understand where they're coming from. Someone who have experienced some of this, the challenges that they are going through. And as a result of that, they feel more comfortable self reporting. They feel more comfortable talking about the challenges then that they have, and they also feel more comfortable taking advice and guidance. And the key advice and guidance that we give them is the importance of positive engagement in, especially, educational settings, but more broadly with support structures. And starting with that support structure is their parents or carer, teachers, and other community support groups. And these young people, because they and it is so Simon is a is a it's an amazing thing to watch. You could see a young person coming into a session for the first time, meeting you for the first time. And when they come, their hoodies are up. They barely believe that they should be there. They don't even wanna be there. And then once the St Giles Trust, I said, it's for stop, begin to talk about their own experience, the the head start pops up, the hoodies start drop, and they start getting more comfortable. And sooner or later, they begin to converse with you. And once that begin to happen, they always wanna come back and talk to you, and they always wanna listen to you. I had one young person. I don't know we're gonna talk a little bit, but I just wanna make this point sound of mine. I had one young person who his challenge was anger. He have, he have issues around anger. And, he would he would, you know, he would he would throw chairs. He would, you know, go act really, irritated. He and and so he had came to my my program to the program. And, one day, he was up there showing chairs, and the teacher come and get me. I said, Desmond, come and see what you could do. So I went up there and I said, come with me, and he and he followed me back to my office. And I said, I let him sit there for a minute to reflect. We're both reflecting, and then I just asked him one simple question. Why? What happened? And he said, I don't know. He said he don't know. And then my job was to kinda explain to him that his behaviour is not only endangering him, but also is other student, the teachers, and everything. At the end of the session, he was so calm. He was so accepting. And then this is the key. What we're gonna do about it? What I want you to do, I want you to go back up to your class, and I want you to apologize to your classmates. I want you to apologize to your teacher. He said, but I don't know what to do. I said, don't worry. I'm gonna show you how to do it. We both sit there, and this is where the collaborative aspect of the program is important because we do not impose solution. We collaborate with the mentee in coming up with that unique solution to support that challenge. We both sit there, and we formulated a quick little note for him. And I said, this is it. And I take him back up there, and he go. This kid was so brave. I it just made me made me emotional talking about it. He went in front of his class and he stood up and he read a little paragraph. And you know what happened? The entire class stood up and clapping. That's probably the first time in his life he has ever been applauded, and he was so so happy about it. And that's the type of thing that the this, relatable relationship, this cultural competency provide, not just for that student, but for the entire school, both for staff and for pupils within the school, and it's an amazing thing.

Simon Currigan: 33:23

People listening to this, sometimes especially people listening to this podcast, right, they really care about the kids in their class, and they they want them to do well in terms of their social ability and their emotions and their outcomes aside from their academic outcomes. But sometimes, as a human being, as an adult, although you may want to connect with everyone in your room and help everybody, you're not necessarily the right person to do that or the best person maybe is the word. I think sometimes you have to give ourselves permission to say that that's okay. I might not have the shared lived experience or the, you know, the cultural competence to do the job as well as someone else on staff. And that doesn't mean that you failed as a human being or failed as a teacher or an educator or learning mentor. It just means that there's someone else in the team that can do the job better, and that's okay, which can be a hard hard message to hear sometimes.

Desmond Skyers: 34:23

Yes. It is. It is. It is.

Steve Warner: 34:26

I I think as well, it's about having a culture within this within a particular setting that allows you, a, to say, do you know what? It's okay. And, b, to open their door to allow organizations like us, and there's other people out there that do a cracking job as well, To come in and work with these young people from that different lens, and that's a phrase I use quite a lot, it's a different lens. Because, having the culture that within the school that's actually brave enough to do that is absolutely key as well. Because no school wants to be labeled the school with quote, the gang problem. And actually, you do get you know, there's always that risk of the keyboard warriors hitting the keyboard while they've got this and they've got that in their next gang member talking to them. Woah, there must be a problem within the school. We've gotta bear in mind as well, actually, for many of these young people that are entrenched, actually school. They keep their head down. They're not coming in wearing colors yielding noise because they don't need the attention of school leaders, anybody else within school. I'm actually coming to keep the head down, go under the radar at school. The problems are very much a community issue, and schools are so well placed to support and and and tackle that as part of a an education response to a community, societal challenge. I think that's absolutely key.

Simon Currigan: 35:48

And you you talk about keyboard warriors there. I mean, the keyboard warriors are after simple solutions, often extreme solutions to complicated problems. One thing I'll say is they don't they don't build statues to critics. Can you tell us a little bit about what sessions practically would look like in score? If I was to put camera up in the room where these conversations were happening, what does session look like? So I can imagine it in my

Steve Warner: 36:15

head. I think the starting point, this context is key. There's no one size fits all. And we've talked about community and community context and what have you. We've got to remember every school operates within a different context. So an understanding of the issues, the challenges, and the context within that school and those young people are working is absolutely key for from the starting point. And what we tend to do is utilize 3 sort of key approaches. There's that group facilitation, sharing, relevant and and accurate knowledge, either to larger groups of young people and also potentially smaller targeted group work where we can break down and unpack many of those issues. And we're talking, yes, we're talking county lines, knife awareness, grooming, etcetera. But also as well, it's about extending our scope to some of the other issues and challenges and risks that young people face themselves. We do some work particularly on sort of female focus work around sort of girls empowerment, around positive relationships. Unpacking perhaps joint enterprise a little bit and and so young people understand that actually they can still be guilty of involvement even if they weren't the one who necessarily, should we say, inflicted any sorts of injuries. So we talk about joint enterprise, about conspiracy, social media, understanding gateway drugs. So what we try to do is utilize, if you like, many different angles, and we would work with a setting to look at what are the main challenges within that community and how can we best approach that. So facilitation is one method. Perhaps the most empowering, method and approach is our embedded mentoring, and this is about developing that trusted relationship. It's about actually embedding someone within the fabric of the school, working with young people on a one to one or small group basis over a prolonged period of time. Because we've talked about the impact, and we've talked about the ripple effect, and we've talked about embedded change takes time. This isn't a tick box exercise. And I think the third aspect of our work, and that this is when we talk about culture, this is absolutely key. It's actually professionals training. Tackling that void of understanding that exists within many education professionals. And that's not a criticism there, but let's face it, when we're training to be educators, we're not sit down and talk through risk factors indicators around youth violence. So what actually we've got, and and and again, we we see it day in, day out in our work, is a lack of understanding. And quite often, we find that young people are more informed than those adults that are trusted, with their safeguarding. So part of our work as well is also about upskilling the knowledge, the understanding, identifying risk factors and indicators of many young people within education professionals. We're not saying we have all the solutions because we don't. What we can do is work with professionals to identify those most at risk. And again, early identification is absolutely key, but you've gotta know what you're looking for. We've gotta be able to join the if you like, join the dots, look at those subtleties, and start to think actually, young person goes missing, has got has got an absent parent. All of a sudden, he's got the Gucci bag, friendship groups have changed, Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. All of these start to point, towards us. But what we're actually talking about is mapping and supporting professionals in in mapping and in making that informed sort of benchmarking, if you like, of who is actually at risk.

Desmond Skyers: 40:05

Mhmm. And just to if you don't mind me, I had the a point here to here, as as what the session looks like. So if you peeping through the window, you wanna see what's going on in the room, what you'd see, you'd see a fully engaged discussion with a young person. Begin with making sure the young person understand that safeguarding is the number one priority here. So if you tell me something that I deem to be a risk for you and other student staff at the school, we are gonna report that. So starting the session is confidentiality, safeguarding with, review of, the session before. Then we go into this conversation, whatever the the issue is for that day for that particular young person. And so this session is conversational, and it is activity based. So like Steve talked about, for example, joint enterprise. If we are using a presentation to demonstrate the consequences around, and the and the knowledge around joint enterprise, we would not we would not just show the presentation and talk through the presentation. We would demonstrate. So we like to use what we call a tool that says, we tell, explain, describe the TED. So we TELL, we EXPLAIN, and we DESCRIBE. And then the young person express his understanding by telling, explaining, and describing. And at some point, there's a clear understanding that we are both shared understanding on this. So it's conversational. It's highly, interactive. It is fully engaging, and it is activity based. So I just wanna say if you peep into the window, what you would see, and then you'd see the mentee with, worksheets in front of him or her, and you would have a pen. You'd see the mentor with a marker, a whiteboard. You'd see a monitor screen to show the presentation. And then you'd also see just to make sure that safeguarding is at the, is at the the key, you'd see a a office phone or a walkie talkie. Because the the key is that we are dealing with young people that at some point, we become, we are involved in a trusted relationship. So they trust you and you trust them. So that's kind of what you would see peeping through that window, Simon.

Steve Warner: 42:45

Oh, ultimately, we're trying to encourage young people to develop their critical thinking skills. And it's about, you know, making those those positive choices. I think as well, but there's sort about the structure of the sessions. And I think that's absolutely key because what these aren't do is come and sit down for an hour or week and just offload. But we also recognize the fact that sometimes there is a need for that safe space, and there is the need for young people actually to have that conversation about what's happened at the weekend. About, you know, maybe brothers just being being imprisoned or or or have you or something they've seen, heard, experienced. So there is that that that that we call it we call it that safe space as well. And that's absolutely key because all our work is needs led. The young people set the agenda, and we come back to context is key. There's no one size fits all. It's about taking the young person, and it's about supporting them in the direction of travel that they're going down and actually redirecting as is needed.

Simon Currigan: 43:48

That that makes perfect sense. And and that's so often true with many of areas of SEMH and support kids' behaviour. That connection is is so important. What's unique about the lived experience of your SOS plus mentors and facilitators that enables them to develop these connections and have that sort of cultural understanding and really be able to connect with these students in in ways that other adults have have not been able to in the past?

Desmond Skyers: 44:25

If if you don't mind me take this one, Steve. So the lived experience have to be a genuine, transformation. So you can't say you're providing support to young people using your lived experience with 1 foot in criminality and 1 foot in in the professional space. It have to be a genuine transformation from past negative and criminal behavior. It have to be clear. The lived experience have to be accountable and responsible, and the support have to be consistent. So with those 3, it more probable, likely, that you become relatable because you're you're sincere. It's not it's not faith. It's not a performance. It's a connected delivery. So that's what lived experience is about. It's about, authentic transformation, accountability and responsibility, consistency, and most importantly, relate relatability. So that's what makes it so unique.

Simon Currigan: 45:36

I guess kids can smell fake a mile away. So when you're talking about authenticity and and reality, where are we gonna take the program next? What's the future for the SOS plus program?

Steve Warner: 45:47

Future's looking good. We're we're currently involved with an emergency study with YF, as part of their trusted adult world. And what that will do is give us those sort of validated outcomes of our work, which we absolutely fantastic because obviously demonstrate the impact. There's so many different facets coming into this. Having that valid those validated outcomes will be like gold dust for us. Also very mindful of why do education agendas now, and attendance, well-being, behavior, inclusion, safeguarding, all very much on that agenda. And what we're starting to see is, as we sort of wake up from the impacts of COVID, you know, again, there's a lot of conversation. We see it now, the impact, exclusions, attendance. And I suppose a real key of our work is a real focus on understanding the underlying issues, post COVID rather than just sort of focusing just on how the behavior sort of manifested itself. And obviously, you know, our trust out the mentoring is absolutely king as well as working with education settings to develop that that that understanding and that and that early identification. I suppose bigger picture, political landscape, etcetera, 3 easy wins. And I like a broken record in saying this. Number 1, make it mandatory as part of teacher training. Put a unit in, whether it be within your safeguarding or whatever. So actually what we start to do is as we get those, people come up, future teachers to tomorrow, they've got that understanding of risk factors, indicators, etcetera, etcetera. Everything we've talked about, mandatory. Boom. Number 2, crank it up within safeguarding. Your annual safeguarding reviews, let's have more on this. You know, one slide with surpassing reference. Come on. We can do a bit more than that. And number 3, potentially slightly unpopular, a lot of talk about Ofsted at the minute, etcetera, etcetera. Can't get up with any inspection guidance. Now we saw how, for example, British values a few years back was really projected onto the as part of that inspection framework. Actually, schools all of a sudden sat up and took that that that issue a whole lot more seriously. Let's put something on the inspection guidance around this as well so it doesn't become that tick box exercise. It becomes much more deep rooted, if you like, in terms of entrenched within within the just the the work of the school.

Simon Currigan: 48:20

Yeah. Sustained piece of work over time. That's so let's imagine then that you're a teacher or a school leader listening to this right now or watching this right now, and you don't have access to the kind of support that that your organization provides, and you suspect that one of the students you work with is getting involved in criminality. Maybe they're showing some of the symptoms that you spoke about earlier, poor attendance and and changing and shifting peer groups. Maybe they've turned up with a Gucci bag. What's the first step you can take to support them with that risk of exploitation?

Desmond Skyers: 48:59

Okay. So as Steve, talked about earlier, we we provide professional training. So we're not just in in in this space just to support that, one young person, but we are in the space to support the school in general. So professional training around what is it that we are trying to support the the young person with and how it would impact, the staff. Because to be honest, some of our, our teachers, they're not they're not, you know, quote, unquote, from the ends, if you if you know what I mean. They're not from around the way. So they have there is challenge. That that is a built in challenge. So what we do, we try to upskill, professionals in this space in understand that understanding that dynamic. One of the thing that, the professionals in this space can do is to, you know, concerns and issue properly identified, take action towards them. Don't sit on something that might seem minute. If there is a concern, do something about it. St Giles is a charity that support at least vulnerable children and young people and vulnerable adults. So St Giles is a prime organization that they should contact. And St Giles, like Steve says, is not the only organization that do these things. But I think take out the fear factor, the reputational damage fear factor. Take that outside the window and and and focus on the need that you're identifying within your school, your student body. And then I think we would be kinda making the right step in the right direction, if I'm making sense.

Steve Warner: 50:43

I think it's also important that schools look at a whole school approach where they suspect that there might be young people at risk. And what we're talking here is actually a cultural shift. There's that phrase, culture eats strategy for breakfast and in schools, we can have the best laid plans and intentions because we live an action plan with education, but we haven't got that culture, particularly around this issue. Then those plans never gonna materialize, you know, get to a point within a school setting where, do you know what, it's okay to talk about lives, it's okay to talk about violence, it's okay to challenge that mainstream narrative. Look at how we can utilize curriculum to start developing those challenges and build that culture. Yes, education staff training is absolutely key as well, tackling that void of understanding, but also making sure that you've got a school where it's that culture shift, where it's okay. Bearing in mind as well, engage your pupils, talk to them about the national picture. What are their views? What are their opinions? There is no one size fits all in terms of of of tackling this issue. Okay? Use that phrase, context is key. So but we would absolutely from from from personal experience, be open to that cultural shift to remember, it's okay. Let's get our heads out of the sand, and let's start working with young people.

Simon Currigan: 52:13

And for listeners and viewers that want to find out more about your resources and your website, how can they get in touch with you? How can they find out more about you?

Steve Warner: 52:21

I think, obviously, we're always open to direct contact, education at st Giles trust, all one word, dot org.uk. Or you equally, email me directly, steve.warner @ st Giles trust dot org.uk. Also got our our website address. Des, you got that the website address for us?

Desmond Skyers: 52:46

Okay. So it's s t g i l e s t r u s t

Simon Currigan: 52:56

And we should say here that St Giles here is being spelled s t g I l e s. It's not Saint as in the word. It's St as in the abbreviation. And I will put direct links and copies of those email addresses in the in the comments and the show notes if you're listening on the podcast or to the audio podcast. So all you gotta do is click right through to get the information you need. Desmond and Steve, it's been a pleasure to have you both on the show. I've learned a lot this morning, and I'm sure everyone listening and watching has learned a lot that they can practically take away with them to support the kids that they they care for and they teach in school. So thank you for sharing your experience with us on the show today.

Steve Warner: 53:38

Thank you for having us

Desmond Skyers: 53:39

No. No. So for me, I just wanna say a very special thanks for the opportunity to, just to say a few words about, the work that we are doing, and we just wanna give due credit and respect to our young people who, you know, brave enough, courageous enough to, you know, to walk in our in our spaces and and and to, you know, to accept some of our guidance. This is a very amazing thing.

Simon Currigan: 54:01

And that was Desmond Skyers and Steve Warner from the SOS plus program. And Saint Giles, I'm sure you'll agree there was lots of food for thought there about how we support our students in school with criminality and how these are complex problems that require something more than a tick box exercise to tackle in our school. If you found that useful, please remember to like and share. Share this information with your colleagues, and as promised, I'll make sure that the URLs and emails that, Steve and Desmond discussed are in the comments if you're watching this on video or they're in the, episode description if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast. That's all I've got for you today. I hope you have a brilliant week, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of School Behaviour Secrets.