Simon Currigan: 0:44

Are you teaching a tough or difficult class where it's difficult to get everyone focused and you can feel the stress boiling up inside? Or maybe you're a school leader who's in the role of supporting a teacher in the same position. Then keep it here, because expert Jessica Werner is going to talk through how to plan an approach to turn things around, how to improve your mental game (a really important part of teaching that isn't often discussed), how to build relationships with students who challenge the adult, and what to do when you've reached the end of your tether with a class. That's all in this week's School Behaviour Secrets. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. Simon Currigan here from Beacon School Support with this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets hot off the presses, as they say, or they used to say back in the twenties when they had presses, and the presses were indeed hot! Thank you for joining me today, and we're gonna cover a topic that I know will be relevant to many of you. The subject of how do I best manage a tough class. We'll be talking to expert Jessica Werner, who's got lots of useful ideas and strategies for you. So stay with me for that because let's face it, we all encounter difficult classes that just don't seem to gel from time to time. And if you don't have one now, well, you are going to meet one soon, and it's better to have this important information ahead of time. And by the way, if you are struggling with a tricky class, we've got a free download that can help. It's called the classroom management score sheet, and it gives you an impartial way of analysing what's working in your classroom when it comes to whole class management and how to move things forwards. It's also perfect if you're a senior leader looking for a structured way to support a colleague with their classroom management, and you want to take your advice beyond giving recommendations based on your gut feeling. You can get the score sheet for free from our website. I'll put a direct link in the comments if you're watching on YouTube or in the episode description if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast. And finally, before we press play on the interview, don't forget to like and subscribe to the show if you have not done so already. It's a small thing, but it really does help to prompt the algorithm to share this information with other teachers and school leaders so this information gets out there to the people who need it. And if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast, I'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating and review. Not only does this give the show an extra boost, but I love reading what you have to say. And now here's my interview with Jessica Werner about managing tough classes. It's my pleasure to welcome doctor Jessica Werner to the show today. Jessica is the founder and CEO of Northshore Learning. From teaching across the globe, Jessica has witnessed a common struggle, burnout among educators and declining student behaviour. This led her to establish Northshore Learning, a groundbreaking initiative offering personalised life coaching style professional development for teachers. Jessica has a PhD in education and expertise in behaviour support, social and emotional learning, and holistic student approaches that set her apart through Northshore Learning. She is passionately committed to retaining quality teachers and creating an inclusive, supportive educational experience for all. Jessica, welcome to the show.

Jessica Werner: 5:02

Thank you for having me.

Simon Currigan: 5:04

We're here today to talk about managing tough classrooms, which you're sure to come across in your career in teaching even if you've already been teaching for a small amount of time. So for you, what actually makes a tough class or a difficult class?

Jessica Werner: 5:21

Yeah. This is funny because it really... it depends on the person. What is difficult for some is not difficult for others, and we're learning kind of about individual thresholds right now for different behaviours, for how loud the classroom is, and so there's not really a good universal answer, but I would say I think of it more from the teacher's standpoint, like the teacher's stress level. It how much stress is this teacher feeling due to student behaviours in their classroom? So like I said, it's really different for different people, but that's why I like to check-in with the teacher, engage how they are perceiving it because that's all that matters.

Simon Currigan: 6:07

And I I guess part of that is, we're all human beings with different tolerances for different kinds of behaviour. So one situation might that might trigger or make one person feel stressed is different to another human being in the same building working with other children. So it's kind of personalized, isn't it?

Jessica Werner: 6:26

I think it's completely personalised. And I say this, you know, we've worked with hundreds of teachers across the globe, and it really it's such a personal profession anyway. Like, we come into teaching because we love what we do and we wanna support the students. And the hours you spend in the classroom with your students, they are personal. They're very you know, it's like a family almost. And so this is why, you know, we we train and we help schools with general behaviour management, understanding student regulation. But I think the best work comes when we are able to really partner one on one with teachers and see with our own eyes what their classroom looks like, what they're experiencing, and we can help in real time know things they can do that might be able to alleviate the the problems a little bit.

Simon Currigan: 7:22

And that one to one work's important, isn't it? Because, I mean, I've personally found I'm I've worked with lots of teachers that that a big element to being a successful teacher is having your head in the right place, having a strong mental game, Whomever, you know, you you've got in front of you, if you're kind of, like, emotionally not in a good place, then it affects your teachings. It affects your teaching in in all kinds of ways. So what what is the impact of teaching tough classes on those individual teachers and teaching assistants who are working in the room who are finding it difficult?

Jessica Werner: 7:57

You're right. The mental game is critical. It's absolutely critical. Right now, the toll is really high levels of stress. We are hearing about lots of teacher absenteeism and as parents, we have a child who is 12 and a child who is 9, just hearing about the amount of substitute teachers coming in and out of their buildings tells us that this is a legitimate concern, but that's due to stress and burnout, really. It's due to, you know, just feeling overwhelmed by the workload, feeling overwhelmed by the student needs. And there, you know, there is what there is in the classroom and then there's all the pieces that are coming from the outside and from, you know, here in the states, it's our state departments of education. And so just the needs and the responsibilities keep piling up and it's really it's translating into teachers burning out and either, like I said, being absent, needing more days off, or just leaving the profession entirely.

Simon Currigan: 9:01

And it it's worth touching on as well, isn't it? I mean, we were talking before this, before we started recording, and we were talking about how it's not we were talking about this. It's it's not navel gazing. It's not us saying, oh, worries us as teachers because then there's an impact on the kids, and the kids are the important thing.

Jessica Werner: 9:20

So we know I mean, there's current research telling us that a major impact on student achievement and student well-being is teacher well-being. So it matters how the teachers show up. It matters the state of mind they're in. And usually when we're working with schools or groups around understanding behaviour management with kids, we always start with the teacher themselves. We always start with kind of recognising our own triggers, recognising how we show up. We tell the people we work with, you're the CEO of your classroom. You're the chief energy officer because your energy transfers. And so, no, it truly we know how important it is to understand and be supporting teacher well-being. And, yeah, it's not just about the adult in the room. We see the impact on the kids as well.

Simon Currigan: 10:13

All change starts with some form of plan. You have to kind of visualize in your head where you wanna get to and the steps involved before you can enact that change. So at the start of the process, you've got a tough class in front of you, a difficult class. How do how do you put a plan together? What's important?

Jessica Werner: 10:32

First of all, I think you do this before you even meet your students. I think you do this before school starts and you structure yourself with really explicit routines and procedures, and then no matter who shows up to class in the new year, you spend a lot of time teaching those routines and procedures to your students. It's huge. But if you find yourself in a situation where you need some triage, honestly, the first thing and it's not the first thing that occurs to most people because, again, because of the personal feeling of education, a lot of people feel like if I have this tough class, it's a reflection on me as a person, and they don't seek support. But I think the number one thing you should do is seek some outside support and not be afraid, not be embarrassed, not be ashamed because I can tell you right now, it's worldwide

Simon Currigan: 11:24

And I think it's interesting that when someone kind of opens up, say, in the staff room and they start saying, you know, I'm finding this tough. I'm 2 months in. I'm really struggling with this class. It's amazing how many other people will say, yeah. I had that class and I struggled. Or I I'm finding my class right now difficult. And you you start to develop these sort of empathetic bonds with each other. You realize you're not the only person in this boat in this school. And then, like you say, multiply that out across the profession. This this isn't about weakness. This is about finding bonds together and finding ways forwards.

Jessica Werner: 11:57

Yeah. And perhaps for administrators listening, it's important to know to really, like, establish a culture with your teachers that we don't expect perfection. We know you're gonna struggle, and here are the ways we'll help you.

Simon Currigan: 12:11

And I guess an important message for many teachers to hear is turning around a class can take time. So it's about okay. This is the old, the old fitness adage. You know? It's not a it's about progress, not perfection. It's about taking steps because these things take take time.

Jessica Werner: 12:28

Progress, not perfection is, like, our motto in schools. It is and it's so hard for teachers because so many of us, myself included, we tend to be perfectionists, and we idealize the way things should be. So it's really tough when you get into the weeds, and it doesn't look the way you want it to. But that's the beauty of our work where we're able to return to classrooms several times during the year. We see the progress and we're able to tell our teachers, oh my gosh, your transitions were so smooth. You know, this student who really struggled the last time we were here, he was engaged for half the lesson. That's, you know, it's not perfection, but that's huge progress. And sometimes when you're in it, you can't see it as clearly as an outsider.

Simon Currigan: 13:17

You see the difference when you go in periodically as opposed to being there all day. Because when you're there all day, often, I think teachers are guilty to seeing what's wrong and what's not working. They they don't see that gradual progress unless they've got someone to talk to.

Jessica Werner: 13:33

Well, it's not it's not our fault that, you know, we our our brains are conditioned to focus on the negative and on the the potential, threats, and so that is what we see. We see that is what stands in the forefront of our minds, and it is really tricky to get out of that and to start turning it around into what what is working better than it was yesterday.

Simon Currigan: 13:54

Okay. So let's imagine you're a teacher. You're at the front of the room. It's a tough class. You can feel the behaviour sliding away from you. I often describe it actually, like, you can feel the it's almost like the sand is shifting beneath your feet. You can feel behaviour kind of escaping. What practical tips do you have? What sort of strategies should we be using if we find ourselves in that situation?

Jessica Werner: 14:20

So I've been in that situation many times as a teacher. I know I know that exact moment you're talking about where it's like, I am losing them or they are lost. I know that moment. It was very stressful. And I see it. I see it happening in real time with others as well. Okay. So really this goes back to us as the adult, as the CEO. It is okay to give yourself 20 seconds, 5 seconds, 1 minute to regroup. You actually kind of have to. You have to right your own ship and kind of even if it's just like I tell people walk sometimes just moving from where you are is enough to kind of click your brain out of its space and help you reset or take a deep breath or say to the students, I've I've had people do this before, you know what? I need 20 seconds. We're gonna take, you know, we're all just gonna take some deep breaths for 20 seconds And it's more for them than for the students. But again, this is kinda counterintuitive for people because we have sometimes it's hard to admit to ourselves that that we need to reset. And then it feels it feels almost like I'm giving away my power if if the students know I need this too. But what I think is amazing about it is it normalizes for everybody that this is how we can help ourselves when we're starting to feel very stressed out or out of control. So it's actually a really good technique. But yeah, it's, you want to lean in and you want to dive in and you want to start fixing behaviour problems and engaging. But my advice is to like, just try and develop the self awareness in that moment to disengage, reset the ship, and then try again.

Simon Currigan: 16:13

So you're saying kind of it's not about taking any action and running around trying to, you know, implement lots of fixes immediately. It's more valuable to step back for 10, 20 seconds, get that calmness, be able to think more strategically about what needs to happen next, and then role modeling what it looks like. When things get a bit frantic, say, hey. It's getting a bit frantic in here. Right? Everyone, this is how we right the ship. Is is that the kind of approach? Oh, I understood that correctly?

Jessica Werner: 16:45

Yes. We we know that emotions are contagious and calm is contagious. And usually when we're at a point where we were stressed, we're nearing our own dysregulation and you feel that. And so, yes, that's why kind of step 1 is to yourself regulate because our our tendency and our inclination is to match match the student energy, but really we need to reset the energy so they they have the opportunity to match us. And this is something I work on as a parent also because, like, I, as a parent, you you feel the same things happening and it's really hard. So I admit, like, this is really hard. This is like next level stuff. But it's the you have you kind of have no hope of de escalation for your class if you're escalated as well. And so or you have a lot more hope if if they have a model to match. And it's sometimes sometimes I'm trying to think of things that help. I worked with a teacher for many years who taught kindergarten. She had a very, very tough classroom. She would walk back when she started to recognise it. She would leave the front of the room, walk back to her desk, take a sniff of a lavender candle just for herself. It was like, that was enough to kind of reset her brain. If it's really bad, again, ask for somebody to cover for you for 5 minutes. Go outside, get ahead of fresh air, come back because nothing good is gonna come. You're not gonna get what you want when you and your students are both heightened. You'll have a lot better chance and then you can start putting in place, you can start the directives. But things like turning off the lights for yourself, and it helps it helps your own parents and parasympathetic nervous system calm down. It has the same effect on the students.

Simon Currigan: 18:44

So this is kinda like regulation before direction and instruction. Yeah.

Jessica Werner: 18:49

Oh, absolutely. Coregulation. Like, we talk a lot in our work with with, teachers about understanding student regulation, and then the ability to coregulate is really critical in helping the students regulate.

Simon Currigan: 19:03

So there's a there's kind of a a 'teacher law' in inverted commas about managing classes, but tough classes especially, which is consistency is key. Without consistency, you're you're gonna struggle. What I'm interested in, and I've become more interested in this over the last few years, is the interplay and the tension between how do we manage the whole class and have that consistency and then being flexible in supporting kids with social, emotional, mental health needs. How do you manage that tension in a successful way?

Jessica Werner: 19:38

Well, I do agree with you. I think consistency is key. Like, it's one of the most important things. And, you know, in the beginning of the year, when you're teaching your when you're teaching your procedures, when you're practicing it over and over, it's also okay to explain that flexibility is important. And that, and this is a good life lesson for kids. People need different things to be successful. And and we know this, you know, some kids can't sit for long periods of time and be successful. So we let them stand. Others can sit, you know, and just reiterating this to students that we all need different things to be successful. Kids with social emotional issues are basically everyone right now. Like, that's universal. All the kids are having high social emotional needs. Even the kids you don't you think are just fine. They have needs as well. The prevalence of anxiety is absolutely off the charts and it presents so differently in kids that or in people that sometimes we don't recognise it for what it is. So, again, just being able to talk to students about differences in a way that I'm not, I'm not playing favourites. I'm giving this student what they need to be successful. Just like I give you what you need to be successful. And, and there's also, it's knowing as a teacher the difference between willful behaviour or willful activities and kids with disabilities who are unable to control what they're doing. And, you know, it's difficult in classrooms because a lot of times those, the students who have special needs, they don't look any different than anybody. They have you know, hidden disabilities. My own 2 children count under this umbrella. But that's why I think these conversations with students are really important right away and often how everybody has different needs. And I'm going to be paying attention to yours as well. And sometimes we're gonna have to be flexible in the way we approach things.

Simon Currigan: 21:46

And kids can be super empathetic. I remember even really young kids. I remember I used to teach, year 1 a lot. So that's 5 and 6 year olds. And you could talk to them about these things on a basic level, and they'd nod and they'd understand. And they say, yeah. That's fair. This isn't fair and that's fair. Having those conversations with them and and making the implicit explicit so they understand why you're doing the things you're doing can can have a real impact.

Jessica Werner: 22:08

You're right. These kids, especially this generation, I'm noticing, they are highly empathetic, and they are very clever. They see things in each other. They're solving problems. They have they're developing more of a social emotional language and capacity than than I've seen in other generations. So I think there's a lot of hope, and we shouldn't underestimate what they can understand.

Simon Currigan: 22:32

So while we're talking about social and emotional issues and connections, what can we do as the adult to build relationships with students who kind of resist those relationships and constantly challenge authority or the person at the front of the room?

Jessica Werner: 22:48

So I have my 9 year old son is in 4th grade, and he has a regulation disorder. Or so it's been, you know, diagnosed. It's kind of a new diagnosis. As of 2013, they started noticing behaviour issues in kids that didn't fall into the other categories that they had. So my son, he's the child in class who is craving the attention of the teacher. He wants to be he wants, like, positive attention. He wants to be loved. He wants to be noticed. But he the way he shows that is the opposite of somebody you would wanna give positive attention to. And he can't he can't help it. And again, our inclination with kids like him is to lean out, To be like, oh, you know, this, I don't know what he, he won't talk to me. I don't know what to talk about. He doesn't want to engage. It's the opposite. So I always recommend to teachers spend a lot of time, and this is any grade that you teach. This is secondary, this is nursery, this is everybody. And spend some time just talking or getting to know your students in a way that promotes what we call universal positive regard, which is I care about you just for who you are, not for what you do. And the way we can promote that is just by asking questions about what they like and dislike, learning more about them or simply saying, I'm really glad you're in my class. You know, and it's not contingent on them acting a certain way or producing grades. It's just I'm glad you're here and over time that builds up. You might not see it. You might not see the results right away, but it builds up. So leaning in, like, lean in with with relationships, but especially with the ones that you don't want to lean into necessarily, they're probably the ones who need it the most. And it'll it'll help. You will see you will see the results, but it might take time.

Simon Currigan: 24:54

Yeah. And and sticking with those strategies. People want kind of, like, instant magic wand style strategy sometimes because when you run it and you're stressed, I completely understand that. You want that stress to go away. But sometimes it it requires you to stick with something that appears like it's not working immediately, but then it does have that gradual impact over time. And before you know it, you're in a different situation. So when when it feels like the day's gone wrong and it's, I don't know, 2 o'clock in the afternoon and you're already thinking about pop popping open that bottle of chardonay that you got in the kitchen at home, you're exhausted maybe at the end of your emotional tether. I'm asking for a friend. What what then? How do you, how do you keep going?

Jessica Werner: 25:38

I'm not gonna be popular with some, like, policymakers and administrators, but there are times a day where our learning our capacity to learn is higher than others. At the end of the day is not one of those times. We know this. We know this about our brains. We know this about our students. We also feel a great amount of pressure to get through content, but sometimes it's better and it's healthier to maybe spend that last half hour hour. If you're having one of those awful days, if content isn't hitting anyway, focus on community building, go outside, take the students outside, take a walk, focus on community, do an exercise together, do an activity, pull out some crayons. Again, I don't care what grade you teach, this is helpful. I do it with adults all the time. Do something different. Don't lean into the content if you're not gonna, if you're not gonno go anywhere with the content. It's counterproductive. So giving yourself the flexibility to know when you've hit the wall and when your students have hit the wall. And again, I'm very sympathetic because I know how much content everybody has to get through. But it almost makes more sense to pull away from it and come back another time and try and just end on a positive note, end on community, end on end on art, end on something, end on taking a walk, some nature, than to really try and tough it out and get through the math the math unit.

Simon Currigan: 27:12

I think that's an important lesson there because you what you're talking about is practical social activities. And what a lot of people will do nowadays when they're tired and or maybe they've got, like, 10 minutes left because they've they've underrun on something, What I see a lot of is people banging on a YouTube video to fill the time. Whereas in the past, it would have been a discussion or you would have shared a book or or or done a little bit of a or or whatever it is and had that moment of social connection.

Jessica Werner: 27:43

Yeah. Connections are never going to go to waste. So anytime you invest in relationships, community, and connections, it's never gonna be wasted time. But I definitely yeah. I see this all the time. You know, we've got 10 minutes, throw on a video. Again, I love and I live in a state. I live in a state in the US where it is very much winter for about 6 months out of the year. I live in Minnesota. But again, we are just we're seeing so much positive data around well-being and nature. Take them outside. And I tell people here the same thing and they look at me like I'm crazy. But again, getting a little fresh air, no matter how cold, or in some of our schools, no matter how hot it is, it's really helpful. Having them move. Oh, my gosh. Moving is underrated. We don't do it enough. Have have the students move around. Take, like I said, take a walk. Partner up. Take partner up with somebody and give a discussion question or give a question based on something they've learned. Like, we know that this kind of activity helps us retain learning. So there are lots of ways, there are lots of ways to do it, but I always say especially with the younger students, I call it like 2 o'clock the witching hour because they were done, like in 1st grade. They've eaten, now they're tired, they're they're done. You're not gonna you're not gonna do any meaningful learning after 2 o'clock. Like I said, I know this doesn't make me very popular, with those who are, like, get through the content, but it it's what we know about brains and a lot of the work we do is based in neuroscience. We have 2 neuroscientists on our team of consultants who help reinforce this for us. What is the brain telling us that it needs And how do we, how do we work within what our brain can and can't do? And when it, when it's, when it can't do it, it can't do it. So finding, finding a different solution is okay and giving people that permission, It is okay. I know my class. I know these kids. This isn't gonna work right now. I need a plan B.

Simon Currigan: 29:52

Of course, if you're the adult and you feel stressed and you've got cortisol or adrenaline in your system, actually physically moving around is a way of draining that away. So so it's healthy for you as well as the kids who may have loads of energy that they need need to kinda kinda dissipate. So if you're a teacher or, say, a school leader listening to this podcast, what's the first step that you could take today, the first practical thing you could do to turn around a difficult class?

Jessica Werner: 30:24

I would say okay, it's kind of two different things in my head. So for school leaders, maybe finding a way to check-in with your teachers because I unfortunately, there's usually a disconnect in the schools we work in between how the administrator sees classroom management going and how it is going. Because in a lot of cases, if they're not getting office referrals or they're not seeing teachers crying in the hallway, they think things are probably fine. Whereas in the classrooms, the teachers are trying their hardest not to need administrator help. So there's this, like, mismatch. So for administrators, check-in with your teachers. Maybe it's a survey, maybe it's, like, an outsider coming in, supporting the teachers, getting, taking in the pulse of how they're doing, but really check-in with your teachers and see if you can get some honest, some honest feedback, qualitative feedback around where their struggles are, what they could use support in, and what's going well. And then for teachers, oh gosh, again, don't be afraid to ask for help. My 1st year of teaching was a complete nightmare and what I waited too long to do was ask anybody to help me because I think the ego and the pride was like, I can do this. I've always wanted to be a teacher. I can do this. So reaching out for support, to a mentor, to your administrator. I mean, there are groups like ours and like yours that exist to help schools with these things so that people don't have to do this by themselves. But, yeah, definitely keeping it bottled in is really tough. So, yeah, just having conversations with other teachers to to help know that you're not alone is really important. Otherwise, it just kind of, you know, the stress kind of builds, and we feel worse, and we feel, ashamed, and there's no reason for it because it's this is a hard job.

Simon Currigan: 32:34

The the issue that you raised there about the difference in perspectives between school leaders and teachers in the room, there's some data I've seen that really backs that up that that might be worth if you're a school leader, it might be worth referring to. In in in Britain, we have a national behaviour survey every year, and they ask school leaders and teachers the same questions. And I don't have the figures off the top of my head, but one of them is something like behaviour is good in this school. And school leaders, it's something like 85% of school leaders agree that behaviour is good in their school. When you look at what school teachers think, it drops down by about 25, 35 25, 30 points down to about 55, 60%, something like that. So I I think if you're a school leader listening to actually doing the work and going and not making assumptions based on what you see, but talking to people, I think it's great advice. So thank you for that.

Jessica Werner: 33:25

And I would add into that, ask the students as well. So we get a lot of interesting information around classroom behaviours from our own kids. So I knew, you know, last year I knew which classrooms had the most disruption. I mean, the kids, they, they feel it as well because they feel their learning being disrupted. So I would say, like, even asking this is a novel idea, but asking the students.

Simon Currigan: 33:53

Jessica, how can, viewers and listeners find out more about your resources and the work that you're doing in schools?

Jessica Werner: 34:01

So our website is northshorelearning.org, and or you're welcome to reach out to me personally. Jess.northshore@gmail.com. But, yeah, please just I tell I tell people everywhere, just know that there there are supports out there. They do exist. I don't know if you get this as well, but a lot of times when we're introduced to a new school, they say, oh, I'm so glad something like this is out there. I didn't even know. And so part of this is just spreading awareness that there are supports and there are groups like ours and like yours who want to see good, committed teachers feeling good, staying in schools, being able to support our kids.

Simon Currigan: 34:48

Finally, we ask this of all our guests. Who is the key figure or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with children?

Jessica Werner: 34:58

I actually thought about this for a while. This might be a different kind of answer, but it's been my 9 year old son. My 9 year old son who has this regulation disorder has taught me more about behaviour than I learned in all my years of teaching. And it threw a lot of my assumptions out the window about parenting, about what, how parents impacted their kids' behaviour, what kids needed to be successful. It has really, it's opened up a whole new world to me, which I'm so, it's been difficult, but I'm so grateful for it because now I see kids like him everywhere in all the classes and because of all all the work we've done and all the things we've tried, I'm able to really help teachers. And to say things like I said earlier, like, I just because my son isn't engaging with you and hugging you at the end of the day, it doesn't mean he doesn't love you and love being in your class and feel how much you love him. And those are things I didn't know, you know, I made a lot of assumptions before about what the students, who they were and how they acted and what it meant. But now it's really, yeah, I'm so grateful for all the learning that being his mom has given me.

Simon Currigan: 36:25

Jessica, I think that's an important, powerful way to end the interview. Thank you for joining us today.

Jessica Werner: 36:32

Thank you for having me.

Simon Currigan: 36:34

I think there's a lot of food for thought in that interview about when we do meet a tough class, we really have to take a step back and look at ourselves and and our emotional state and and get that right because an exhausted and stressed and disregulated teacher is gonna find it tough to turn a tough class around. And if you're in that position, don't hide it. Do please speak up and get the help you need. And as promised, I'll put Jessica's links and emails in the comments if you're watching the video of this or in the episode description if you're listening to the audio podcast. Found this useful? Remember to like the episode and share it so other teachers out there who are struggling themselves can get this information and get unstuck with a tough class that they might be working with. Again, it really does make a difference. I hope you have a brilliant week. My name's Simon Currigan. Thank you for watching this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets.