Simon Currigan: 0:44

Are you looking for ways to support your neurodivergent pupils in your school so they can flourish, find acceptance, and be the best that they can be? Well, stay tuned because today on School Behaviour Secrets, I've got Melissa Leggett with me who is the person that started the Neuro Ambassadors' programme. She is going to explore the terminology of neurodiversity, which has evolved and changed over the last few years. She's gonna talk about how to use the Neuro Ambassadors' programme in your school to increase knowledge and acceptance of different neurotypes, and she's gonna give us tips and tricks for getting teaching about neurodiversity right. That's all coming up in today's show. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. Simon Currigan here from Beacon School Support, and welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets. We're gonna explore the topic this week of how best to support children of different neurotypes, not just get acceptance in school and feel included, but really do their best and flourish and achieve their potential. And we're gonna be looking at doing that through a programme called the Neuro Ambassadors' programme, which was developed by Melissa Leggett. She's coming on the show today to tell us how to use in out school tips and tricks and strategies for getting that right. So stay tuned for that. If you're finding the show useful, please remember to like and subscribe. It takes just 15 seconds to press those buttons, but it does make a real difference to us. Because when you do that, it prompts the algorithm to share the show with other listeners, other teachers, school leaders, and and parents just like you who need this information to support the children they work with. So by liking and subscribing, you're helping get this information out there. And if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast, please leave a review as well. I love hearing what you think about the show. It gives me a little bit of encouragement to keep going. If you're listening to the show as well, we've got a download that complements this episode really well. It's a free download. It's called the SEND behaviour handbook, and what it helps teachers do is link the behaviours that you might be seeing from pupils in class to possible underlying conditions like ADHD or autism or trauma. It's not trying to turn teachers into doctors. We're not qualified to diagnose kids. That's the realm of medical professionals. But if we as teachers can start to join the dots between the behaviours we're seeing and possible underlying causes, we're the people that often kick start the process of getting the right professionals involved so the kids can get early intervention strategies in place and the right agencies in place they need to support them. It's a completely free download. It's the SEND behaviour handbook. You will find it on our site, beaconschoolsupport.co.uk, and I will drop direct links to where you can get your own free copy of the handbook in the comments if you're watching on YouTube or in the episode description if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast. That said, it's time to move on to our interview. So this is Melissa Leggett talking about the Neuro Ambassadors programme. I'm very excited to welcome Melissa Leggett to the show today. Melissa is the autism resource based specialist teacher and a computer science teacher at Southend High School for boys. As the creator of the Neuro Ambassadors' programme and a director of Neuro Inclusion UK, Melissa is dedicated to all people's learning about a neurodiversity, why it should be celebrated, and how they can help their peers. Neuro Ambassadors started as an idea back in July 2022 and is now being implemented both in the UK and around the world. Melissa, welcome to the show.

Melissa Leggett: 5:01

Thanks for having me.

Simon Currigan: 5:03

I thought it would be useful to start by asking because the language around neurodiversity has evolved a lot, especially in sort of the last 18 months. And there will be people coming to this topic completely fresh, completely new, who might not be sure of some of the terms we're using. And it's gonna be helpful for me as well to get an update on on what the current terminology is. So could you just walk us through some of the terms that you're gonna be using during the interview so we all know what they mean and we've got clarity. We're all using the same definitions for the same words.

Melissa Leggett: 5:33

Absolutely. So neurodiversity is referring to the entire population. It's people that are neurodivergent, so that covers autism, ADHD, Tourettes, dyslexia, etc. All of those, are neurodivergent conditions, but you can have so when we talk about neurodivergence and those that are not neurodivergent, that whole umbrella is neurodiversity. It can sometimes be thought of that people say neurodiversity, and they're actually say referring to neurodivergent.

Simon Currigan: 6:09

So in neurodiversity be like in the in the Venn diagram, that that's that covers everything?

Melissa Leggett: 6:14

That's it. That's it. And the some people, can find the word neurotypical, (although that word has been used for quite some time), some people can find that, offensive because when you're using that word, the word typical, that's being used in there, if we put that as a meaning of, you know, we could have a synonym there as normal, the opposite of that is then going to be atypical, not normal, and so people can then feel that that is offensive. So the term I'll be using is predominant neurotype. And what I'm meaning by that is that in the entire population statistically, the predominant neurotype would be non or not neurodivergent. But in a household where it's, you know, it's it's hereditary that the if you are neurodivergent, then the predominant neurotype in that household is, neurodivergent. So it can be both depending on which context it is and can be seen as more affirming.

Simon Currigan: 7:20

That that that makes that makes perfect sense. So now we've, clarified the terms. Let's talk about the Neuro Ambassador programme. Before we get into the details about what that actually is, can you talk a little bit about what prompted you and what inspired you to to create the programme?

Melissa Leggett: 7:38

Honestly, it was to do with, the journey I went through with my son and his identification, process. So he's, you know, I know I'm biased, but he's awesome. He's, he loves to climb, spin, you know, shuffling coasters is the most frequent one we're doing at the moment. But, you know, he also manages autism, ADHD, global developmental delay. You know, we've got sensory processing and, you know, listen, there's quite a few things that he manages. And it was going through that journey with him that also led me to self discovery. I now, identify as autistic myself. But we'd find as a family when we're out and about that sometimes people would not be as helpful as they possibly could be. And we you know, I genuinely think that sometimes or most of the time, ignorance often leads to unkindness. So when I, you know, when I genuinely think about it, although those experiences may not have been always helpful, I think most of the time, people just didn't know too much about what was going on, when I think from their perspective. And often I found that once people do know a little bit more, oh, okay. What can I do to support in that kind of case? So I wanted Ollie to be, whatever he wanted to be when he was older. And so I started researching and I found some statistics that I refused, to accept, both about the, autism employment gap, but also the neurodivergent employment gap. And mother bear came out and it was just like, no. What have I gotta do to make this right for my son? And I started thinking about how do I achieve it. So I started working backwards.

Simon Currigan: 9:21

Before we go on to that can I ask you one more question about that? You talk about the the autism employment gap. What does that mean? So our listeners have a a clear idea about what the outcomes for our autistic pupils are when they leave school or our new, you know, neurodivergent pupils are when they when they leave school?

Melissa Leggett: 9:39

So we're talking that, I know that the figure fluctuates each year for each report, but we're looking at less than 27% of autistic adults are in employment when the vast majority that were asked want to be in employment. And, you know, when you then link that with the various bits that, the correlated links with mental health, for example, it's not too difficult to make that link between and how, you know can you imagine how that must feel of being denied what you want to do just because of a part of your identity that isn't allowed with a lot of other protected characteristics, in a person's identity. Yeah. It happens here.

Simon Currigan: 10:19

And when you found that out, how did that how did that make you feel as a as a parent?

Melissa Leggett: 10:24

It's, it started off a lot with, anger that I thought to myself that it's just it's not okay. How can we be in this, day and age and that that that's still the case. I also started to have a bit of disbelief, and I know that some people listening that may be aware of that statistic, they might then come back and say, well, actually and I I do get this point. I'm not denying it, but it's there's also the point of, well, there's lots of people that haven't been diagnosed. For example, they haven't been identified. So is that then that's gonna be skewing the, the data that's coming through there? Like, for myself, I identify as autistic, but I also don't have the £900 to be able to pay for the piece of paper to say for definite that it is. It's just through going through that journey that I self identify that way. So it's I know that the data isn't always gonna be completely like that, but it was as a mother, it's it yeah. Anger was my first bit, and then how do I fix it?

Simon Currigan: 11:24

And then you went on from there to creating the Neuro Ambassadors programme. Is that right?

Melissa Leggett: 11:27

Absolutely. And, you know, when I think about I started thinking, well, I've gone on this journey with my son, and I found out all of these different things. Yeah. I had, my son was born in 2016, and I did my teacher training in 2013, 2014, but I didn't know any of these things. I remember in my teacher training that it was it was the done thing, of what was happening, with how SEND was done. It wasn't like how it was any different to any of my peers or colleagues I've worked with since, but It was essentially along the lines of, this is the Code of Conduct. Be aware of it. Bye bye. I'm then going into, a school setting, and I think I know what I need to know. But, really, I didn't know what I didn't know, and it was only then going through this process that I then realised how ignorant I was to a lot of the different, needs that pupils have. So the the inspiration came from that, and I was thinking I needed this programme to be able to both support staff as well as pupils, in their learning and felt that I was very lucky with the school that I'm in that they are their whole ethos is around what's in the best interest of the pupil. What do we need to do to make that make sure that pupils get what they need to get, to be well rounded individuals? Yes, the academics that, is it plays its important part, but what's gonna help them be a well rounded individual? So the programme was then very welcome.

Simon Currigan: 12:59

And I think I think the timing is great, actually, because when you look at the education system in general, I think we've lost sight of what education is for. It's just it's not just for how many GCSE grades we churn out or SATS grades or or whatever it is. As a teaching profession, we need to do a lot of thinking about what education is about and and what its purpose is. And I like that you talk about empathy and teachers not knowing what they know because I come across many parents, and they're very frustrated with the school and the teacher that they might have. But I believe in empathy for everyone, and and most of the most of the adults in the classroom are there because they wanna help kids and they enjoy working with kids, but they don't know what they don't know. And that that's not necessarily their fault. They've been let down by training and induction, and and we need to look at those things okay. So we've got the way we set up the Neuro Ambassadors' programme is to give the the pupils and the teachers their knowledge they need to to help all students flourish and succeed and feel accepted. So we've done enough teasing. What how is the programme structured, and how do you actually deliver it in school? Let let me imagine what this looks like. If if I was a school leader listening to this, what does it look like actually in school?

Melissa Leggett: 14:06

Okay. So we first off wanna make sure that we haven't got one neurotype ever been seen to be pitying the other. We want it to be that both neurotypes so every pupil, is both learning as well as teaching someone else. So what I wanted to do along with that teaching was also deal with that employment gap. So I took a 3 pronged approach. I have, or you will have learning tasks, which will be teaching pupils around neurodiversity, so about all neurotypes, why it should be celebrated, how they can support their peers in the classroom, but then later on in the workplace. There's mentoring tasks, so to teach pupils leadership skills, by teaching another human being a skill. It was important to me that this didn't become a barrier because I know that, you know, one pupil may love the thought of telling you know, saying do this, do this, do this, or, you know, and and go through that teaching process. But others, that could be their worst nightmare. So it's making sure that everyone felt that they were enabled to be able to mentor. So we've got learning, we've got the mentoring, and we've then got the work related tasks. That was the 3rd prong. And so with that, you know, when we think about I'm thinking for myself be, as autistic, I I would say that something that I can find really difficult is to change the routine. And, you know, when we think about children in their school educational journey, they have 14 years of doing the same structure that they have lessons. They'll have break time at a certain time and that they, you know, all these different things. And then it gets to the point where they're 18 and okay. So by the way, now you've got a change of place because of where you're going to. You've got different people. They might be different from one day to the next as well and that you've got different tasks that could vary because everyone loves change, and that the support isn't there. So it was trying to you know, in a utopian society, yeah, of course, we'd be able to have this, work experience that'd be from a very early age and that they build it up and it's obviously age appropriate tasks and so on. But I mean, like, they would have it so it becomes this gradual part of their routine. But that isn't gonna be something that's achievable in our situation at the moment, you know, and it won't be appropriate in most in in necessarily in various place. It needed to be that children can make mistakes. Children can be able to, try different things out, try different vocations. What if they don't know? I didn't know what I want to be, you know, when I was younger and I've always just kind of, okay, I'll give that a go. See, I'll get on with that and, you know, and I've worked my way through. But I know some people that have known exactly what they want to be from day dot. But it's being able to allow the children to be able to do that. So for our school, we ended up having it as trips to go to employers, and we did some of their tasks. We had Mel and Jill from Department of Work and Pensions come in, and they provided talks around anxiety and preparing for interviews. We had Rachel from Dig Data and our partners, and we're doing on how to handle money. Did a trip to TP Bennett and over Brynn, we did architecture and construction based tasks. Although they were right for our setting, the point and the bit I hope that, leaders will take away from this podcast is it's mouldable. The main point is, I my aim from data was that I wanted there to be a societal, shift. And if I say that one size fits all for how I've done this, then I've missed the whole point. It needs to be something where leaders are thinking, okay. Well, this is the main thing we're trying to achieve here. Their professional judgment of what's right in their setting, then making that call of, okay, well, how are we gonna do that? How are we gonna do that? How are we gonna do that? It can be done as an extra curricular club. That's what we started off with as, you know, as a test of concept. It can be that it's actually slotted within to the PSHE tutor time curriculum. It's it's completely mouldable to what school wants.

Simon Currigan: 18:20

How is it delivered? Is it is it like a a framework? I mean, you've you've obviously talked about how these things need to be personalized and adapted, but you've talked about, like, a series of activities. Is is it like, is it like a curriculum or a framework or a scheme of what what what does it look like?

Melissa Leggett: 18:34

When I've done it as the, extracurricular, I have so when I was testing this out because last year, this was all just a pilot that we were just trying to see how could we make this work. And I did it based on where you've got your bronze, your silver, and your gold tier. And so I would put these tasks on. We use in our school, but it's where you can play time work. And I put each of these different tasks on there, made it something where I didn't need to do lots of admin to do it. So self marking quizzes and things and bits and pieces like that. But it the main point was that the pupils could do this independently. My biggest focus was that what's gonna be something that's gonna put someone off. And I was thinking, well, teacher workload and money. So whenever I was planning these things, I was thinking, right, if, if I I was in a position at the time where I could give it this time, but what if I didn't? And I was also thinking my, you know, my timetable was gonna be quite different this year and so on. I needed it to be something that was sustainable. And so, yeah, I had most of it online. I would have, I had some volunteer teachers that were happy to just check-in with some of the, the pupils just to see how they were getting on, but it was something I I could do myself as just one person that was managing it. But we was trying to make it more bespoke and seeing how that would work with our pupils as well. When we're doing it this year, so for example, the whole school integration, we've got it both as an extracurricular club, but we've also got it as part of our tutor time programme. So we've got 6 sessions in the January, February, part of the year where we'll have every single pupil in our school will be having this bit first talked to them, an introduction to Neuro Ambassadors. And likewise, then all the new year 7s will get that particular delivery, and year 8 onwards would then get the update with more knowledge and so on. So that by in 7 years' time, we're gonna have these pupils that are leaving with 7 years' worth of knowledge, around how to support the peers and what about neurodiversity. And one of the primary schools that's working with us, they're doing it from their point as well. So then it will be the children that start there will then have 13 years worth of knowledge around it, which I think is really powerful as well.

Simon Currigan: 21:03

So you talked about how it how it's integrated, and you're moving from the pilot now to a more kind of whole school embedded system. I'm always really interested in what lessons you learned in terms of implementation. You do a pilot. You make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, not just in terms of the content, but but how you integrate that into the school day. I'm just curious if if you've got any experience you could share. People are thinking about running with this in their school. Things to avoid so they don't repeat the mistakes that we made in the past.

Melissa Leggett: 21:37

I think that one of the biggest challenges was trying to find employers or organizations that were able to work with us to do those kind of trips because we're so new and so and so unheard of. It was then trying to find those connections. So that was one thing that we ended up having to overcome. But now as of today, we're going to have it, in schools, and they're showing interest in the UK, Africa, USA, and Azerbaijan. And we've got along with, us doing this, interview today, I'm also running, you know, based on the success that this has taken, we've actually started a company. Me and some of my wonderful colleagues both in this school and out, you know, we've got, you know, SENCO's speech and language therapists. We've got people from different settings, people that have a lot of wealth and experience, that just really feel passionate about these calls. And we're then trying to make these resources to make it easier for schools to just pick up and be able to deliver. So because that's one of the other things is that, yes, I've done this this year, but what was one of the biggest challenges was, you know, that initial bit of making the resources and and those kind of things. So one of the things that this business is doing, so Neuro Inclusion UK, is providing teaching materials, for people to be able to run with and just delivering their sessions as they want to, whether it's consultancy, whether it's, you know, bespoke materials to their individual setting, training, etc. So it was trying to make sure that the bits that we had to overcome, we're making it easier then for, the next schools to then find it a bit easier to do that.

Simon Currigan: 23:26

What would you say to a teacher who was worried about saying the wrong kind of thing, using the wrong kind of terminology, or or making mistakes with this? Because sometimes issues like this can be on social media, they can flare up and things like that. And they're a little bit nervous, and they wanna help, but they're nervous about getting it wrong. What what would you say to someone like that?

Melissa Leggett: 23:48

Someone said to me once, it's I think what matters most is do you have hatred in your heart when you're saying it? And if the answer to that is no, then I think we can safely say that the person is doing their best and is trying to make society a better place. We're all human. We all make mistakes. And I I think as long as you're being aware of, you know, I am trying to say or use the correct terminology and accept that, you know what? I might make a mistake from time to time. If I do, challenge me on it. I'll read up on it, and that we can then take that as a learning opportunity to move on with it afterwards. But sometimes fear of saying the wrong thing can stop you from actually trying to do the right thing in the first place. And I think when I did this with, our pupils, I said to them very early on, I said, you are going to be agents of change, and we're gonna make mistakes as we go along on this journey. I want you to be telling me when I'm doing the wrong thing. Because don't get me wrong, before I approach the pupils, I I, you know, I I did to try and do new research. I spoke to National Autistic Society. I spoke to Ambitious about autism. I went through all of the, you know, what I had planned and was asking for lots and lots of different charities. I was saying, can you find something wrong with what I'm saying so that I can change it? And each time it was, oh, great. That makes our, you know, what we're trying to achieve and it there wasn't. But, know, in its very early stages, what it is now isn't what it was then, and I've tried to mould it because it was when I was talking about barriers earlier when I first thought of, oh, everyone's mentoring. But it was only when I started thinking, oh, actually, that person, he's finding that a bit tricky to engage with. I need to make a change there. True learning doesn't take place. I know it sounds cliche as I'm saying this, but true learning doesn't take place unless you make a mistake. And it's I think it's been an opportunity that I could really model to the pupils. It's okay. Adults make mistakes as well. And I think each time even when I've I've said to them, you know, you're my guiding compass here. It needs to be whatever we do, you need to be making or giving feedback on what is gonna make people want to do this next year. At the moment, you're, you know, you've you're eager and you wanted to help me out, and that's wonderful. But let's say I'm opening this up to the whole school next year. What is gonna be our barriers? And so it was their guidance, and we just treated it as we're all in this together. We're all equals in this. How do we make this happen? I think if you have that kind of culture where you're treating the young people as adults, that really comes as a powerful way that we're all in this together. We all wanna do good.

Simon Currigan: 26:48

I'd like to think big picture now about the impact you've seen the programme have. And I I'm not just thinking about individual pupils, but I wanna think about the range of neurotypes, children, adults. So what changes have you seen as a result of using the your program?

Melissa Leggett: 27:08

I think the staff are becoming more, happy to talk around, strategies and oh, okay. What if we tried this or what if we tried that? Just the confidence around talking about the subject. You know, that part of where you said earlier about not wanting to say the wrong thing, for example. It's just, okay, what if I should try this? What do you think? And it's just having that open dialogue. I think people become more confident with having those kind of conversations. I think with well, one of the things we know is where is, those that did the extracurricular club, they got a badge on the blazer for being the ambassador, and it then encouraged the conversation just quite naturally between staff and pupils that they would, oh, what was that badge for? Oh, it's because I did this, and it just became something that was just part of the conversation there. And it's wanting it also to be from a point of view that we want to put pupils on an even playing field. If we think that and that's all pupils. I'm wanting it to be that I'm wearing glasses right now, but if I was to say, right, I want you to run-in a straight line, but you can't have your glasses on, and I want you to follow this, etc, and I'm going then against someone that doesn't need glasses. If I didn't have the glasses on, you'd say that was unfair. But it's trying to get across that point, and that's what we're really starting to see is that change between fair and equal. It's making sure that everyone feels or actually, you know, the questions of why are they doing it differently or actually it'ss what's a fair thing for that person and pupils and staff seeing it as that's what we should be doing and seeing that societal shift. And when I think we've, impact wise with when we went to Overbury, and TP Bennett, Overbury since have ended up making the neurodivergent, like, quiet spaces in their sites based on what they learned when we were giving them the, some of the, training, you know, of what would benefit some of our pupils. It's been really quite wow, for me to see that big change and, you know, I've been told I should describe myself as tenacious. That's a better word for me to use. I say dog with a bone. But, you know, I genuinely feel that this is something that it should just be taught. It should just be something that's part of the curriculum. And when I think back to, you know, there was a pupil that was speaking to an Ofsted inspector, that came in recently. And they were because they wanted to find out a bit more about the programme. They were very interested in the programme, and it made its way into their report. But one of the pupils was asked, you know, have you ever come across, any discriminatory language, around the school? And the person's response, he took a deep breath, and he said, yes. But I don't think it was coming from a place of malice. I think it was coming from, ignorance, and I felt that I had the tools and the knowledge to be able to challenge it. And that person hasn't said anything like that again since. And when you think, you know, it would be naive to think that children don't make mistakes in school. You know, it it happens. That's part of why they are taught, you know, and how they are taught is to make sure that when they leave school, they know what's right and what's wrong when they're in the, you know, in society. But if they then already are feeling like they can challenge that, they can already make a change before they've even finished school. And isn't that the kind of thing that we're after?

Simon Currigan: 30:56

Absolutely. I think I think you're a 100% right there. And understanding that people make mistakes, it's not all about malice. It's sometimes it's about not understanding or not being exposed to that information to be able to understand what they're seeing in the language they're using. I would love to hear, before we finish, about an individual success story that you've had using the Neuro Ambassadors' programme.

Melissa Leggett: 31:21

I would say that of 1 pupil, he joined our school a little bit later, and he had never been on a school trip before. He joined us and, was a little bit nervous, but he ended up coming on, that trip with us, which, we have both neurodivergent and non neurodivergent peoples that attended. We did a visual story so he knew what to expect. Yeah. We gave, you know, gave him a full rundown the pictures of the spaces because that's where we were doing that training with, with Overbury and T. P. Bennett on that. And he got on that trip. He went to that trip. He did all of the various activities on that trip, and then was on the way back was then saying, can we do a trip to Disneyland Paris? I thought, wow, that was I thought that was quite a a big jump. You know? But, you know, in terms of the the when I say that this pupil hadn't been on a trip before, it wasn't because of means of it was they didn't feel comfortable to be able to go on that trip because of their need to be met, and that they would feel you know, if they needed to have a moment to regulate, they, you know, they felt comfortable enough to do that and that they knew they were surrounded by people that understood and were accepting, of what that person needed.

Simon Currigan: 32:48

That trust is massive, isn't it? Because it it helps kids really push themselves and extend themselves. Otherwise, like you say, they kind of retreat away. If you're a teacher or school leader listening to this or watching this today, what's the first step you would advise them to take to start supporting children with different neurotypes in in their school?

Melissa Leggett: 33:09

I think that, first of all, you know, looking at our SecEd article, which gives a bit more detail of what, this bit's about and finding us on social media, whether it's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And when our first set of resources go live, hopefully towards the end of this month, or early next month, you can follow those. But I think it's just been accepting that you don't necessarily know everything. No one does. And okay. What how how can I actually go about finding out a little bit more? How can we make sure that peoples do know a little bit more? So if they aren't necessarily aware of, you know, difference, they have the tools to support the people that they're with afterwards. So I think it's being aware. Yes. Following us for with the business side of things that we can then support with, the delivery in your schools. But I also think with looking at your school practice as well of do you really need a bell going off, to tell people that the end of the lesson, it's looking at little things like we've we've gone to, we don't use bells anymore. We just use a watch, and that's when we say that people can go. But, actually, the impact of that one little thing is that we haven't got someone that's been not able to concentrate in their lesson because they're counting down how long it's gonna be until that terrible sound then starts.

Simon Currigan: 34:39

I'll put, links to to everything you've mentioned in the show notes if you're listening to the podcast or in the comments if you're watching this on YouTube. But, yeah, for people that are listening, maybe they're on the treadmill, maybe they just wanna lock the website away. Where can they find out more about the program? Where do they go?

Melissa Leggett: 34:55

They go to neuroinclusion.uk.

Simon Currigan: 34:59

And one last question, and we ask this of all our guests. Who is the key figure or what's the key book that you've read that's influenced your personal approach to working with kids?

Melissa Leggett: 35:09

My son for as, my main driver since, since he was born. But, otherwise, I would say my parents that they've always been very, accepting, very understanding, and even when, you know, maybe I didn't always feel quite like I fit the mould when I was growing up, etc. They always made me realize that I was awesome just the way I was, and they didn't need to change.

Simon Currigan: 35:40

Melissa, thank you for joining us today.

Melissa Leggett: 35:42

Thank you.

Simon Currigan: 35:43

And that was Melissa Leggett from the Neuro Ambassadors' programme. I wanna circle back to something Melissa said there that's really worth bearing in mind, not just about the Neuro Ambassadors programme, but she talked about how sometimes as the adult, we can hold back from giving children the support they need and that they crave because we as the adult are worried about saying the wrong thing or making a mistake. But she said, if our intentions are good, then generally, the children will be accepting, and we learn as we go. That's the human condition. Making mistakes from a from a good place is is very different from saying unkind things from a place of malice. And I think that's really worth walking away with and and think about how that should inform our practice and the decisions we make about the support that we offer. I hope you found that useful this week. I'll put all the URLs that Melissa mentioned. I'll put them in the comments if you're watching this on YouTube, or I'll put them in the, episode description if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast. I hope you have a brilliant week, and I look forward to seeing you next time on School Behaviour Secrets.