Simon Currigan: 0:44

Are you working in a school or classroom where behaviour is just not clicking or you feel there's a a sense of disconnection, there's a gap between your students and your staff, or perhaps you want to know about new ways of supporting children with their behaviour or their social, emotional, and mental health needs, then stay tuned because this episode is for you. In my interview with Stephen Steinhaus, we're going to unpack what a relational behaviour policy actually is, the impact it can have for your students and your staff, and we look at how actually a relational approach is foundational to every aspect of teaching and learning in schools. It's not just about the behaviour policy itself. Stay tuned for that. I'll be back after the music. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My cohost is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. My name is Simon Currigan from Beacon School Support, and welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets where we're going to be looking at what a relational behaviour policy actually is and how it can have a positive impact for your students and your staff. In my interview with Steven Steinhaus, he's going to actually explore what makes a good relational behaviour policy and how a relational behaviour policy is actually about having higher standards for your pupils than it is about removing boundaries or expectations, which is a misunderstanding that many people have about this approach to working with children. If you're finding School Behaviour Secrets useful, before we get into all that, what I'd like to ask you to do is to remember to like and subscribe. Because when you do this, whether you're watching the video version of the podcast or whether you are listening to the audio, it prompts the algorithm to share this information with other school leaders, teachers, and and parents just like you so we can get this information out there to as many people as possible. And, also, remember to share it maybe 1, 2, or 3 colleagues that you think would find this information useful so it can have a positive impact in as many schools as possible. If you're watching this, we've got a really useful download that's completely free that complements the contents of this interview really, really well. It's called the classroom management score sheet, and what it does is it gives you a list of objective actions that you're taking or not taking in the classroom in terms of your whole class management. So maybe things aren't quite working the way you would like in class. Do you think there's improvements that could be made around behaviour? Or maybe you just want to check that you're engaging in best practice in terms of behaviour and relationships, then this download can help. It gives you a list of factors so you tick off a checklist of things that you're doing or not doing, and it gives you action items to make sure that you're improving your practice. And guess what? It's got a heavy focus on relational practice, forming those relationships, engaging with the children, and making sure they're connecting their learning with their future desires, what they want to get out of life. So they understand the purpose of the learning, and we all know that when kids are engaged and they understand the why of what they're doing and how it connects with their lives, then they're more likely to behave well beyond task and achieve their potential. You can get it from our website, beaconschoolsupport.co.uk, and I'll put a direct link in the show notes. If you're listening to the podcast, all you have to do is click on the podcast artwork usually and it will pop up. There's a direct link there, and you'll be able to click directly through. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, I will put a direct link in the comments. So with all that said, it's time for my interview with Stephen Steinhaus on the impact of relational behaviour policies, what goes into a a relational behaviour policy, and the skills your teachers need to be able to implement that in your school. So I'm very excited to welcome Stephen Steinhaus to the show today. Stephen was born and raised in Chicago, but has lived in England for almost 25 years. He opened Solihull Academy, an alternative provision free school for students in danger of permanent exclusion, in April 2018. The academy converted to a multi academy trust in September 2022, and he's continuing to expand across the West Midlands with sites now in Solihull, Coventry, and Warwickshire. Additionally, Stephen sits on the secondary council for the NAHT. That's the National Association of Head Teachers and his coregional lead in the West Midlands for PRUs and APs. He speaks at a growing number of conferences about, amongst other things, alternative provision, behaviour inclusion, curriculum intervention, attendance, SEND, and commissioning. Welcome to the show, Stephen. It's great to have you here.

Stephen Steinhaus: 5:49

Thank you for having me.

Simon Currigan: 5:50

I'm interested to tap into your experience today. We're gonna talk about behaviour policies. And for me, behaviour policies are about how we how we kind of, like, transfer our aims and values, our sort of big picture stuff in school into actions that people take to create that culture that work that we're after. And we're gonna talk about relational behaviour policy. So I wanna kick off by asking, so what exactly is a relational behaviour policy, and how is that different from what we've done in the past? How is it different from an inverted comma "traditional" behaviour policy?

Stephen Steinhaus: 6:22

If one chooses to use the phrase behaviour management, which is now kinda old money, when schools have been at their worst in terms of behaviour management, then old school behaviour policies function as essentially a how to guide to get rid. So it's a how to guide. How do I get this child out of my classroom? How do I get this child out of school for a few days for respite? Or how do I get this child out of sight, out of mind, either moving into a different provision or permanently excluded. And looking with a negative view at some of those old school behaviour policies, that's what it is. So relational means that behaviour is relationships. Behaviour is communication. And so and and particularly now post pandemic and post Brexit, austerity movement, all those things. You know, you have to think about behaviour and learning behaviours in particular as the bottom line is, why the heck should a kid behave? What expectations cultural expectations of the school, of of the home? What, role models do they have going before them? Because all those rights of passage and totems and milestones that one, again, in old money would say, yeah. Well, this is what everybody does. Even back then, that was a challenge for a number of our our young people. But now, a number a further number of our young people are challenging those assumptions. Well, why should I do that? So the relational element is understanding that we need to pay in and be deliberate with how we are working with with our young people so that they are exhibiting the learning behaviors that we need them exhibit to exhibit in order to learn what we're trying to help them to learn. It's, you know, the the very simple and I use it even though it's kind of a a fast metaphor of you know you're gonna you're gonna take out of the piggy bank. You know you're gonna be withdrawing, so you better be paying in 1st. You can't start from empty. You're not you're not going into overdraft. And because overdraft in in our system, in any school system, is goodwill, is is, you know, this is what is expected. Well, what have you done as an educator, as as a provision, as an as a school, as an academy to engender that buy in rather than just expect it. You know, it's that old adage of if you want respect, you need to earn it. Well, that's what we're talking about. It's earning what in some cases for young people are unnatural artificial asks and behaviours.

Simon Currigan: 9:39

What we're teaching the kids doesn't connect with their real lives, and it does no longer connect with what happens in the real world or what they're expected to do when they go into employment. There are there are kids sitting in lessons thinking, what on earth does this have to do with my life, my ambitions, the way the real world works? And then we wonder why they're not interested. And then you throw on behaviour policies that are kind of stuck, and then you get this sort of tension between the teachers and the kids because we're not actually digging deeper into in into why they're behaving that way.

Stephen Steinhaus: 10:09

Yeah. And and, I think the relational aspects are also the relevant aspects exactly as you say, Simon. So relational behaviour is is the curriculum. You can call it a behaviour curriculum and teaching learning behaviours, but, also, it's the adaptive curriculum. Previously I was an English teacher. Previously, vast majority of kids would learn paragraph structure when we were working on it because I said, we're gonna learn paragraph structure. There wasn't the the the urgency of the why. Why are we learning this? Why are we doing this? How are we learning this? How are we doing this? Those are all questions that adaptive curriculum and relational behaviour makes primary in that transaction between educator and educated. And the pandemic calls into question the the the essence of schooling as compared to the essence of learning. You know, I've I've mentioned this previously in other podcast interviews. My oldest son did his is in his 3rd rotation as a junior pediatric orthopedic surgeon in France. He went to med school in France, and halfway through his medical degree stopped going to lectures because he said, I'm not learning from them. I'm learning from this. No one can argue that he hasn't learned what he needed to learn. He passed his national exams in a second language, but the bricks and mortar didn't matter. You know? So it's a relational behaviour policy says, okay. These are our, expectations or nonnegotiables, but also says, this is what we're going to invest in order to get the best get those glimmers out of our students. Because, you know, a a a good behaviour policy, whether you call it relational or not, doesn't really apply some of those some of those appendices and what not doesn't really apply to 85% of the school. But a good behaviour policy also drives those 85%. Because it's not just about what happens when you do something wrong. It's about what do we expect in terms of being a member of our community and eventually being a member of the wider community, and how are we transferring those skills.

Simon Currigan: 12:46

Sometimes I talk to teachers. This tends to be more at secondary just because of the way the curriculum's laid out, but they love their subject, and they say, I am here to impart my subject knowledge to the kids. And this behaviuor stuff, this relational stuff, this is this is stuff that other people should be doing. I do kinda think in a world with chat GPT, it can already explain it 6 ways 6 different ways, probably explain it in more detail, give more examples, do it in a more interactive way. One of the only things we have to offer in 5 years' time above some of these teaching methods is our humanity and our ability to engage and reach people on a human level and make those kind of adaptations that computers just simply can't do.

Stephen Steinhaus: 13:26

You know, I guess probably when I was trained to teach, as when you were trained to teach, Simon, there was still that element of you you need to know your subject so you can fill up their cups kinda thing as opposed you need to now you need to know your subject so you can address the gaps and so you can light a fire. It's the same thing. I was I was working with a school in Warwickshire, and I was talking to this member of staff about a similar query. It's like, well, you know, I I am a history specialist and this, and I said, well he said, so what do I need to do, small talk? And I said, well, yeah, sort of. Is that you're trying to make a human connection. So, you know, as subject specialists and people who have gone into teaching because they're passionate about those subject I mean, I did. That's why I went into teaching. It's because I love English literature. I love I love drama. I love Shakespeare and Brecht and and Arthur Miller and Toni Morrison and all these things. So what I yes. I'm trying to impart knowledge, but I'm also trying to inspire, and that's where the relational element has diversified. Because I may not be inspiring the next generation of English professors, but what I am inspiring is the next generation, full stop. And that relational policy says, I need to be not just an expert, but a role model of behaviours of how I make connections with people, how I regulate, how I deal with upset, you know, how I interact with people, how how I react when challenged. Those are with schools increasingly footing the bill for society in terms of SEMH, in terms of safeguarding, in terms of social care and social skills and whatnot, then it is incumbent upon us to look at all of those issues in the context of a a a learning unit, a learning moment, a teachable moment, because a teachable moment requires engaging on any number of those fronts in order to get that information across.

Simon Currigan: 16:03

Some people will be listening to this, right, and they'll be thinking, is this the same as just getting rid of rules and boundaries? How is this consistent with high expectations in school? What would you say to people that are kinda raising those questions?

Stephen Steinhaus: 16:17

There is that element of improvisation and adaptation. But in order to adapt and improvise, you need to know not just your subject, but your lesson plan and your students. Like, whatever is is more knowable than the back of your hand. I mean, you need to be in deep with that in order to do that. But, also, when students come to us, And in the old days, and I still do this on some occasions, that a student who is referred either for some support from our trust or into our trust, they in the old days when I was principal of our first school, I would meet them first. And it's a very simple thing. If you can sit in a room at the age of 13 with a 6 foot 4, and back in those days, 345lb skinhead American guy, and talk about your education and your school and your issues and your triggers and your, you you know, best practice and the interventions that you've had and what's gone wrong and the the accuracy of what your home school has said about your educational career. If, man, isn't that the highest expectation? We're putting you in that situation, and what we are expecting is for you to be able to engage at that level with a stranger, for for all intents and purposes, who owes you nothing and you owe nothing. So a relational behaviour policy has the highest expectations is that we are expecting you to engage and to improve your engagement as a young or future adult who can be aware of their limitations, be that limitations in in terms of need or be that limit limitations in terms of understanding, you know, electrons, whatever that whatever that gap or limitation is, this is the highest expectation. In on our worst days, with a with an old school behavior policy or with a relational policy, in our worst days, a child who is struggling to master the concept that you are asking them to engage with in your lesson Never engages with it because they know how to get out of it. If I throw a pencil, if I pop this kid in the ribs, if I call that person something I shouldn't call, if I get up and walk out, you know, the day walker phenomenon, then I don't have to grapple with something that I don't understand. Now it may not be my fault that I don't understand it. It's because of the building blocks that aren't there. And so that relational part behaviour approach alongside that adaptive curriculum is my job is not necessarily to get them to master the concept that I put up on the board as a learning objective. My job is to understand what building blocks are missing from in terms of academics or mental health or or regulation or whatever it is that I can address that to then try and get them to that concept. People can say, well, they're disrupting lessons, so they need to go, and I take that. But what it also does is it means they never grapple with the beast of what you're trying to get them to do in the first place. And all that in incumbent and inherent learning that will get them to that place. That's high expect that but, also, that's hugely high expectations of the staff as well.

Simon Currigan: 20:14

Now can I ask a question about that? Because in my head here, I'm I'm trying to picture myself as, say, a headteacher or deputy head is who's interested in this. And the thing is with the traditional behavior policy, actually implementing it is dead easy. You've got a set of rules. Kids are out of line. You do x, y, z. You follow a flowchart. If a if a child does the right thing, x, y, z, you slap a sticker on them or a house point or whatever. They are very simple systematic things to implement. So imagine we got an ECT joining our school, you know, early career teacher, someone who's newly qualified, fresh to the classroom, first time they've ever had their own class. What skills do I need to be working on them with to to be able to implement this? Because this this is more complicated. This requires more skill.

Stephen Steinhaus: 20:56

Those students who are not engaging with that, as you say, very simple system. Here's what you come in, you sit down, you get your, you know, do now task, you adjust that, you do that. But those students who aren't, you need to be very deliberate in terms of, I'm going to adapt for those students. I'm gonna get to know those students better. I'm gonna ask questions of and about those students. I'm gonna do my research on those students. And we've got we've got one member of staff, one of our sites who actually took me at my word because I said, you know, there's something to be said for a 20 minute investment of slap on your trainers and and go jump on the football pitch. Now that's a very again, it's that's a very flippant response. And this member of staff, actually came in the next day in trainers. God bless him, and he went for it. Because those are the students who I'm not getting through to. What can I do differently? That is a skill to reflect and go, what can I do differently to make it overt, explicit, relational, and deliberate? I want to connect with you so you can learn this because I truly believe that learning this is going to be a benefit for you rather than because it's on a policy and because it's in a national curriculum, we're gonna do that. I think for an increasing number of our students that don't cut bait anymore.

Simon Currigan: 22:27

One thing I often see is now the curriculum is so packed, and I think teachers feel uneasy about exercising their professional judgment. There's so much material that the kids walk through the door, bang, we're straight into a lesson. And the kids are desperate to share things about their lives or talk and make that connection with the person at the front of the room, then that kind of regulates them and gets them ready for learning. And and without that investment, and it might just be 3 minutes, right, 3 or 4 minutes talking and connecting, that can unlock the rest of the lesson. Actually, you make a lot more progress than if you'd kinda just you just try and push through that and ignore it. And I think the same with, the kids' physical state, like with younger children when they come in off the playground, they might be amped up and excited or something like that. Just trying to push through into your math lesson and ignoring their physical emotional state, you're not gonna get the learning done.

Stephen Steinhaus: 23:18

I think you've just summed up this I can go now. You've summed up this podcast. But I'm I I am a man who likes to make ridiculous pop cultural references. And so to to as a follow-up to what you're saying is, I talk a lot when I'm working with ECTs and and and, well, and all teachers and coat in a from in a coaching model. There was, unfortunately, no longer is, there was a prog rock band from Canada, the Mighty Mighty Rush. And their drummer, Neil Peart, is referred to by many as the greatest rock drummer ever. And they did this documentary, and he was working with a he was the greatest rock drummer ever and then decided I need to relearn how to play drums. How about that? How's that for a role model? And was working with a jazz drummer. And they're they're in the the 2 of them are in this discussion about most people think drumming is the hits. He said, stop thinking about the hits, stop thinking about the sound, and think about the patterns of movement that gets you to the hits. And so the the the visual of adaptive relational teaching is that. It's not I'm at the board and and holding forth because, you know, in in any mainstream school, 85, 87, 82, 76 percent will take that, but they they probably can't even absorb that for a full 50 minutes. And it's not just here. It's and as I'm moving through, just the the change in air as I come past you or just, you know, a a a pat on the shoulder or a tap on the desk or yes or you know, it doesn't have to be a full a a full sentence or conversation or a fist bump or, hey. Our director of education talks about all the time. Hey. Nice trainers. Now, obviously, you're not supposed to be wearing trainers, but you know what I mean. I'm not here to be their friend. No. But you are there to show them what stable, healthy, positive relationships can look like and how they maintain those relationships as well as you. But, you know, when it's gotta be the adult who changes and makes the effort for most children or for most children that we're talking about in terms of who may struggle with behavior. Again, it's that overt, I am making an effort. You know? It's also, you've walked in late. It's very it's very different. Why the heck are you late to let me get you up to speed on what we're doing and then having a word later. When when we first opened as a free school, and and we still do this, is that, you know, getting in a kid's face and shouting or or anything like that, get out and all that, all those awful bits, we we don't do. I was very clear. I don't do it. You shouldn't have to do it. And I I hauled off on this this this one kid. I really did. And then I went and found him, and I said I was wrong. And this is before we had fully established our restorative practice. I went and said that I did it in public. I was wrong. I apologise. That's not acceptable. What you did wasn't acceptable, but how I responded was not the way it should. Now just in that, you know, modeling for staff, modeling for students, accepting your mistake, doing something about it, but also holding the child to account while also holding yourself accountable. And that's exhausting.

Simon Currigan: 27:22

And then and then kids learn that adults are human beings, and and you can repair relationships and do the right thing.

Stephen Steinhaus: 27:28

And to that end then, everything is curriculum. So a relational behaviour policy is behaviour curriculum. But it's also in our teaching and learning policy, is essentially the ocean in that it's the behaviour piece, and then the the learning rolls on top of it. Because if we don't have this, that's not gonna happen for our kids, the vast majority of our kids in AP. Whereas the opposite is is it's well, actually, it's less true than it used to be. But you would say a mainstream for the majority. Maybe maybe they're not a huge majority, but for the majority, we'll get this, this, and this. But for those who struggle, we've got to make sure that this is there. The relationships are there in order for the learning to happen.

Simon Currigan: 28:26

And let's not forget, right, the kids that are submarining here. There was I saw a figure. I can't remember it's where it was from, but it said 1 in 5 kids, right, right now are struggling with anxiety. That's a table of kids in every classroom. Average classroom of 30, that's a table of 6. You might not notice them, but they're submarining. They're hoping no one noticed them. They're hoping they can get through the day without being picked on all psychological start up scars or having to stand up and say something in class, but but this works for them too. Can I ask, right, I'm I'm just I'm trying to put myself in the in in, you know, in the position of a head teacher who's really interested in this or a deputy or a behaviour lead? And I'm thinking, okay. How do I write this policy? What's in it? What does it actually look like? Because we all know what a what a traditional behavior policy looks like and says, but what what does a relational policy actually say?

Stephen Steinhaus: 29:17

Well, it can be that whole scale of, okay, that teaching and learning is underpinned by relationships and behaviour, and that behavior is not just a one trick pony of this is the behaviour policy and that's it. But also it's it's a policy where there is room for a consequence might be intervention rather than sanction or might be intervention alongside sanction. It reinforces that we we can't must be looking at reasonable adjustments if that's what's going to be best for the child. It highlights that idea of, yes, the brunt of this policy is about what we're gonna take out if things don't go the way they need to. Right? But it front what are we front loading? What are we paying in from the start? You know, whether that be you you come in in year 7, and we are explicitly teaching behaviour and doing that at pastoral time and and this, that, and the other thing, or whether that's interventions that are waiting that child, a child can access or a greeting when a child arrives at school in your lesson, exits your lesson, all of that sort of stuff makes it makes it relation.

Simon Currigan: 30:38

So we've got a child who's having difficulty in those difficulties are persisting, instead of just hammering away more detentions, we think about what should be going on if this child could succeed. They would be succeeding. Actually, what's going on alongside whatever we've got in school, what adaptations we're making, the links to the SEND policy bringing that together as a current year in whole.

Stephen Steinhaus: 30:58

If everything is curriculum, then everything is behavior and relationships. And and and behaviour and relationships is the potting soil, is the fuel that is growing the culture, growing the learning, and and facilitating the progress and the attainment.

Simon Currigan: 31:16

What you're describing here isn't a tick box. It isn't a 'relational behaviour policies are becoming more popular'. Let's tick this box and get that for our school. This this set this is foundational. What you're talking about really is foundational about the way the school approaches education in general. It's not siloed in behaviour or SEND. This this this is real big picture stuff.

Stephen Steinhaus: 31:37

Yes. Absolutely. And we you know, because if you look at it in an extreme not extreme, but towards the end of the behaviour ladder in a policy, we're just having this conversation with a a school we're working with. I was just having this conversation yesterday, a mainstream school we're working with, is is suspension and then permanent exclusion. Now there is there ain't none of us who have gotten into this this sector and this business to permanently exclude students because we know what happens that gets students permanently excluded and what happens to students who are permanently excluded. Not everybody, but we know the caustic effects of that. But we also know one of the leading drivers of PX is multiple suspensions. But our behaviour policy says that it's it's not the nuclear option, but it's the golden buzzer and that suspension. So what is that doing? That's driving the child further away from engaging with their academics. It's not an intervention. It's a sanction. It's lowering their attendance, and it's moving them closer to permanent exclusion. So it's you know, a relational behaviour policy looks at, okay, what can we do that has the same punitive impact as a as a suspension, but also intervenes because we know where this bus is going. I guess, what a relation relational approach to behaviour as opposed to just a relational behaviour policy says is we must be very clear. And, Simon, I don't know, have you ever been involved in a permanent exclusion?

Simon Currigan: 33:30

So I used to be the center head of a people referral unit. I'm I think pea a lot of people are under the impression that if you permanently exclude people, suddenly it will force something magical to happen, and agencies will line up like a hit squad of crack professionals. Actually, when I was working in the system, nothing happened. It's and those kids were just left waiting for spaces.

Stephen Steinhaus: 33:53

And for the professionals involved and for the shot callers in that mainstream school who are making that decision, you know, for your own self protection, you could see how, okay, have I got all my ducks in the row? Have I done everything I need to do in order for this PX to go through? But also, a relational approach to behaviour says that even if we've done all that, it's still gonna take a piece of your soul to do this. Because we know what PX does. And I I I will fight to the death for mainstream colleagues to have the ability to suspend and PX. That's not my job to say you can't do that, but it costs the staff as well, obviously, as the student. My gosh.

Simon Currigan: 34:43

Once once you're through that door for the child, there's no walking back. Their life will never be the same. So if you're gonna make that decision, you have to be 100% certain. You've done everything you can because, you know, there's there's for the child, their life will never be the same.

Stephen Steinhaus: 35:02

No. And and, also, that is the sanction. So part of our approach to AP in this trust is the permanent exclusion, that tag is the sanction. The provision you get after that should not be the sanction. Oh, well, you just get whatever because you've been bad. And, again, when this system is at its worst, that is what happens. But, you know, the Centre For Social Justice has been very clear in their research in saying that how do we address that impact, permanent exclusion? How do we prevent that, well, school to prison pipeline and whatnot? Well, one of the key weapons in that fight is ambitious, relational, academically innovative alternative provision. But what I again, I'm try I'm not trying to do myself out of a job, but what I'm when I work with mainstreams and when we work with mainstream schools is that alternative does not necessarily mean this site where I'm sitting now. It means it might just mean thinking of in an alternative way. This is not working. What can we do differently for this child? Now mainstream education is unwieldy beast, so you can't really shift in real time into a different gear. But a relational policy and a relational approach kinda builds just that little bit of capacity to think, hang on. We've been down this road before. Why are we still doing it this way? The vast majority of kids in mainstream not vast majority. Majority of kids in mainstream, this is how we do it. They will buy into it. That's fine. But what we have to accept coming, again, coming out of the pandemic and where we are in the world we live in, in the country we're working, in the system we are a part of, is there are students for whom that will not work. And, actually, it doesn't matter whether it's the kid's responsibility or parent or carer or society or social worker or or school or whatever. We are the professionals. We are the educators, and we got into this business, every single one of us, to change lives. So let's let's see what we can do.

Simon Currigan: 37:30

We've covered a lot of ground about the power of relational behaviour policies and why they're important. So if you're a teacher or school leader listening to this, Stephen, what's the first small because we've talked about an awful lot here. What's the small first practical step you can take towards moving towards this more relational approach? Because we've talked about that philosophy. You know, it's it's it's an all encompassing approach to education. But what's one small thing you could do today or tomorrow to start implementing this or moving towards it?

Stephen Steinhaus: 38:04

Who are the students that are vulnerable in your school, in your year group, in your lesson, who are vulnerable in terms of they are not going to make it through to the end of year 11 and and ratcheting that all the way back. They're not gonna make it through. They're not gonna make it they're consistently not making it through your lesson. If they're not making it through your lesson, they're not gonna make it through the school day. If they're not coming through the school day, they're gonna be suspended within the week. If they're gonna be continually suspended, they're gonna be PX'd. And that whole Russian nesting doll going through, who are those kids? Pick 1. You know, pick 2 in a in a class. Pick 1 in your class. Pick 5 in your year group. And what are we, what am I as an individual? What are we as a department or a pastoral team? What are we as a school? What do we know about them, And how are we using that information to try and, I talk about evasive maneuvers. Right? How are we gonna try to prevent, to disrupt, to change that trajectory? So, you know, here are the needs that we have identified that are not being met. What are we as a school doing to meet those needs? What are we as a pastoral team doing to meet those needs? Can't we do anything different? We know what are the things that actually work? Okay. Well, we know that. Is everybody doing that? You know, and and really drilling down, we need to know everything we can about this child in real time and adapt in real time. You start with 1 and really make it deliberate and explicit your analysis and discussion and and synthesis of ideas. So this is what's gonna happen. Here's how we mitigate it. This is what might happen. Here's how we prevent it. This is what could happen. Here's how we make it so.

Simon Currigan: 40:12

And it's amazing when you do that and you think deeply about the problem, how actually 1, 2, 3 small systematic consistent changes of approach like that can really change the game for a child. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Before we wrap up, I wanna ask you one question that we ask everyone who comes on the show, and I'll be really interested in your answers actually. Who is the key figure or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?

Stephen Steinhaus: 40:45

It takes me back to my my very first year 1st year? 2nd year. Well, 1st and second year university. There's an author named Jonathan Kozel, who wrote a book called Savage Inequalities. And it compared and I'm gonna use eighties nineties film references. It compared Winnetka and New Trier High School, I believe, which is the area where all the home alone films were filmed. It's also where Breakfast Club and all those John Hughes films of the eighties was filmed just in the North Suburbs of Chicago. They compared New Trier to East Saint Louis High School, and they compared at every level, the funding, the state of repair of the buildings, recruitment of staff, curriculum, etcetera. And I was playing football at university at that point, and a couple of guys I was playing with went to East Saint Louis. And I remember asking one of them. I said, dude, is this legit? And he's like, man, that's not even the half of it. And I I and I remember sitting there thinking, I'm training to be a teacher. I remember sitting there thinking, how have we allowed this to be? And, actually, I get up every morning and say, how have we allowed this to be, and what can we do to change it? And that's 30 years later. And I I don't know if Jonathan Kozel is still alive, but I wish I could find him and say, you have no idea. And I'm sure there's any number of people who would say that, but just that reality check. But also indirectly, a call to arms. If you're going into education, how can we allow this to be? Won't stand for it. Good. Let's go. And that's every morning. Let's go. There is a reason to believe, but there's also a reason to be doing what we're doing.

Simon Currigan: 42:49

Stephen, it sounds like he gave you even though he never met you, it sounds like he gave you a mission in life, and I'm sure it's a mission. It's certainly a mission that resonates with me, and I'm sure it's a mission that resonates with many of our listeners. I've really enjoyed the chat today we've covered so much that's so practical, so useful. Thank you for being on the show.

Stephen Steinhaus: 43:08

Thank you so much. I'm I'm if I was really, really loud, it's just because I'm excited. And, you know, there's there's there's always more that we can do, and I really, really appreciate you putting a lens, on this. And thank you again.

Simon Currigan: 43:22

And that was Steven Steinhouse there talking about how to implement relational behaviour policies in your school. And I think the big takeaway from that is that this is an approach that underpins absolutely everything we do in school. It's not just about behaviour. It's not just about SEMH. Actually, it's about how we connect with the current generation of students in our school, help them understand the purpose of education, and get them focused on meeting their potential. If you found today's episode useful, don't forget to share it with your colleagues because that helps get this information out to more people so you can do more good in more schools. I hope you have a a brilliant week, and I can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets.