Simon Currigan

Have you ever had a pupil look you in the eye, shrug their shoulders, and say, "I don't care," and then felt yourself getting pulled into a power battle that you never wanted in the first place? After working with hundreds of schools and literally sitting in on thousands of lessons, I've seen how often those three words are misunderstood. Because "I don't care" isn't always a sign of the student having attitude; sometimes it's a sign of something else entirely.

So in today's episode, we'll unpack what a pupil might really be telling you when they say, "I don't care," why trying to force them to care can actually make things worse, and what to do to avoid those power battles in the first place.

Hi there, welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets. My name's Simon Currigan, and I'm the kind of man who always opens a packet of tablets from the chemist from the wrong side of the box. So you know the instruction leaflet? It kind of folds over the tablets and stops you getting the strips of medicine out. It doesn't matter what side I pick, it's like the chemist is my personal nemesis. They're out there to personally torment me. It's similar to, you know, when you plug in one of those older USB cables into a computer, but you always do it upside down the first time. It's like the medicine version of that.

And I know as you're listening to this, you might be thinking, "This guy is complaining about a very low-grade problem. I'm dealing with some important stuff in my life right now. What on earth is he talking about?" But we are where we are, and that's my personal struggle right now. And I've been open and authentic and honest and emotional about it, revealed it on the podcast. And I'm going to be honest, your cold silence has left me feeling judged and belittled. So what next? Where do we go from here? Do we just sit here in silence? The answer's no. The answer is, of course, open the tablets from the other side of the box. In today's episode, which has nothing to do with that at all we're going to look at one of those phrases that can really get under your skin in the classroom. So let's imagine you've set the task, you've explained what the children need to do, and then one of your pupils refuses to work, maybe starts to engage in a bit of low-level behaviour. You go over, do the right thing, sort of take them to one side privately and remind them about expectations and consequences or whatever. And then they look at you, they shrug their shoulders and say, "I don't care." If you've ever been on the receiving end of that sentence, you'll know as well that the student can deliver it in lots of different ways. They can deliver it in a rude way, a dismissive way. It can sound like they're throwing your help back in their face. And sometimes, if we're honest, when they do that, it can push exactly the wrong emotional buttons in us as well as the adults. Because the thought that then flashes through our minds is, "Well, if you don't care, why should I?" And then everything escalates and spirals into a confrontation. And today's episode is going to be about why kids do that, what they might be really telling us, and how to manage them successfully in the classroom.

But before we go any further, if you find School Behaviour Secrets useful, make sure you subscribe or follow the show in your podcast app. That means the next episode will pop up automatically, and you won't have the chore of remembering to search for it later. And if you've got 30 seconds while you've got your podcast app open, leaving a review makes a huge difference to us because it helps other teachers, SENCOs, and school leaders find the podcast too. So if the show has helped you think differently about behaviour or given you something practical to try in your school or move this situation on with the students that you work with, I'd really appreciate you taking a moment to leave us a review.

And I want to start with this piece of food for thought about "I don't care." If a child goes out of their way to tell you that they don't care, there's a very good chance that on some level they definitely do care. Because if they were genuinely indifferent to what you just said, they wouldn't need to mention it or announce it to the room. So when a pupil says, "I don't care," particularly if it comes with a hard stare or folded arms or they push their chair back when they say it or they've got a bit of a smirk or there's a bit of theatre they engage in for the benefit of the other pupils, then it's definitely worth wondering what else is going on here. Which part of this current situation are they trying to hide that they do care about? Because "I don't care" is often not actually a statement of fact. They're using that statement more like armour as a shield, as a way of saying, "For whatever reason, I'm going to hide what I'm actually feeling right now."

So let's start with a real classroom example and work back from there. Let's imagine you ask a pupil to begin a writing task, and they sit there tapping the pen on their desk. So you move over and say, "Come on, you need to make a start." And they say, "I don't care." Then you say, "Well, if you continue like this, you'll lose some social time." And then they shrug and they say again, "I told you I don't care."

Now, obviously the trap here, based on what we've just said, is to take that sentence literally, to hear those three words and treat them as like the whole truth. But in my experience, "I don't care" can actually mean lots of different things, and they need the right response. So sometimes "I don't care" is a synonym for, "Right now I feel a bit ashamed." This is the pupil who's thinking that they're going to fail the task, and they would rather reject that task before it rejects them. They look at the worksheet, they read the first question, they realise they don't really know where to start, and then in their head that sets off an alarm bell about failure. And suddenly it's the work that becomes stupid. The lesson is boring. It's you picking on them. This subject is pointless.

Now, that might look like attitude from the outside, but underneath they might be trying to protect themselves from the feeling of not being good enough. Because if I'm in that position and I say, "I don't care," then I don't have to say out loud or admit to myself or engage even with the idea that I don't understand this work or face up to everyone else is getting on and seems to be able to do this and I can't or deal with the sort of wounding underlying belief, "I'm stupid and not as good as everyone else." And for some pupils, that feeling is unbearable.

And I'm not saying those statements are true about the child, by the way. For them, what I'm saying is the belief might be true even if it's not an accurate depiction of reality. You know, it's like the poster and the meme that went around a couple of years ago, "Don't believe everything you think." You can believe something about yourself that's limiting, and it isn't true. So I'm not saying those beliefs the student have are correct. I'm saying they believe them, and they're not actually an accurate reflection of reality.

So what we see is the pupil starts to reject the task before they have to deal with all that negative self-talk and those negative beliefs. For these pupils, the way we help them, the key to success isn't about building their confidence. Psychology shows us it's actually about helping them find a path to a small victory. We have to ask ourselves, what's the smallest, simplest, concrete step they can take towards completing this task? Because taking actions is what actually makes us feel confident.

Taking actions actually precedes developing that confidence. It comes before confidence. A lot of people believe that if we tell ourselves messages like, "If I believe I can achieve," or we give our students rah-rah speeches, that will engender the confidence they need to start the work. But actually it's the opposite way around. We develop that confidence by taking first steps, and that helps us see some success, however small. And then it builds the sense that we have agency. We start to believe that we can do this, and that encourages us to take the next step. It's called the confidence-competence loop. So confidence starts with action. How do we find that first action so they can move forwards?

On the other hand, sometimes "I don't care" means I'm feeling overwhelmed. We often think of that sentence as defiance, but think about a pupil whose brain is literally overloaded right now, and they're just kind of stuck. Maybe we gave them too many instructions. Maybe the room is noisy. Maybe they've missed the first step of the task. They're not quite sure how to get started, and everyone else is moving on. Maybe they're hungry or tired or anxious or still kind of ruminating over something that happened at break time.

And then we add just one more demand like, "Okay, get started," or "Copy this down," or "You'll need to get this done before lunch." And it's just too much for them to process and manage. And then what instinctively comes out of their mouth like a defence is, "I don't care." But the real message for these students this time is, "I'm actually overstressed. I'm overwhelmed right now, and I need this to stop."

Now, that doesn't mean, of course, that we remove every demand in the classroom, but it does mean right now for this student we need to think carefully about the demands that they are experiencing. And if you've listened to the podcast before, you'll know my framework for analysing those stresses is called the PAIN Framework. I'm not going to go through it now, but it does provide you with a systematic way of assessing what pressures your student is experiencing so you can pinpoint the right strategies to move them forward.

If you want to know more, check out episodes 255 and 273, which walk you through the system and give you practical examples of understanding how to apply it to your pupils. But for pupils like this who feel overwhelmed, understanding those stresses is really important. You need a way of identifying them so you can put in place compensating strategies in the classroom.

Another synonym for "I don't care" is "I need to save face." This is especially common when other pupils are watching our interaction play out. So our interaction has an audience. So let's say a pupil gets something wrong in front of the class. We correct them publicly, or maybe we ask them to redo their work while their friends are all within earshot. And suddenly, as that interaction starts to develop because it's naturally interesting to the people around, we've got more eyes and ears focused on our conversation.

And I know it, and the student knows it. And here's the key thing. Now our student isn't just dealing with the work they couldn't do or putting the work right. They're now worried about maintaining their status in the group. They're dealing with how they look to everyone else. And in that moment, after they've said, "I don't care," and they've folded their arms, suddenly changing direction and following the request of the teacher can look like a massive climb down in front of their friends. So they lean back, give a shrug, and go with, "I don't care."

But actually it's all a mask to hide that social tension and discomfort. Technically this is called psychological consistency, which means basically we all want to behave in ways that are consistent with statements we've made in the past. If I tell my family I'm going on a diet and the very next day I'm tucking into chocolate cake, that isn't consistent with what I said I was going to do. So I'll feel some discomfort about that. I won't like that situation. So when our student says he's not going to do something, he doesn't care, it's then very hard for him 30 seconds later to act like he does.

And how do we deal with that? Well, the answer's obvious really. It's kind of in the question. If the problem is the audience, we remove the audience somehow. And sometimes that's easier than others. If you're out on the playground at break time, that might mean literally sending the other kids away. If we're in the classroom, sometimes that means moving away with the student to continue the conversation away from prying eyes.

Sometimes it involves us, the adult ourselves, moving away from the confrontation. So we redirect everyone's attention somewhere else in the classroom by commenting on some good work, like literally on the other side of the room. Those eyes all then follow us, and we're kind of releasing that audience pressure from the student because now they know that their friends aren't watching. I'm not saying we don't come back to that issue. I'm not saying we let that issue go. But once the audience has been redirected and that focus has been lost, then we can return to it a bit more subtly.

Because without the audience, the interesting thing about psychological consistency is it becomes much less powerful. And when we're engaged in one-to-one conversations, people are generally happy to show some compromise and be flexible, and then you can find a way forward from there. One of the biggest traps we can make in this situation, by the way, is trying to force the pupil to care. So we might start saying things like, "Well, you should care," or "You'll care when you're older," or "You'll care when this affects your GCSEs," or "You won't get anywhere in life with that attitude."

And right, I've said those things. I've been there, and I understand why we say those things. What we're trying to do is get the pupil to see the bigger picture. We're trying to help them, yeah, but in that moment, if the pupil's overwhelmed or ashamed or trying to save face, or they're already on the border of dysregulation, actually talking in that way about the future, their future career prospects, isn't suddenly going to unlock their motivation.

In fact, usually in the real world, it does the opposite. It kind of raises the stakes, increases the pressure, so everything starts to escalate. And then what happens is what was originally a small refusal turns into a bigger power battle. So our way forward in those situations isn't to ask ourselves, "How do I make them care?" Our approach should be more like, "How do I help them take the next step forward without feeling threatened or humiliated or overwhelmed?" Now, that's a different aim, and it's much more achievable.

And actually it gives us much better adult language to use. Instead of having an argument about, "You need to care about this," we might say things like, "Look, I'm going to be honest. You don't have to love it. That's okay. But let me break it up into smaller steps for you so it's more manageable." Or, "You don't have to care about this for the whole lesson. Let's just focus on the next two minutes and get those right." That kind of language lowers the temperature in the conversation.

And on your side, it moves your aim from trying to win their hearts and minds to settling down and focusing on something for the next five minutes, which believe me is much more doable. Now, if you're a school leader listening to this, I think there's a bigger question here for you too. Because if "I don't care" is a common phrase in your school, it's worth looking beyond individual pupils, not to blame staff, not to blame pupils either.

But as a leader, when we see patterns of behaviour that start to show up, we need to analyse what's causing those. Are pupils saying, "I don't care," repeatedly because they're not able to sort of access the work that they've been given to do? Are some pupils experiencing failure again and again in certain situations? Are they being corrected on their behaviour publicly over and over when those corrections could happen quietly?

Are behaviour systems in school helping pupils reengage with lessons, or are they mainly about recording the fact that the student didn't engage? Are staff using similar language or approaches when pupils are stuck, or is every classroom handling it differently? And this is where whole school approaches really matter because one teacher can have a brilliant approach, but if the pupil moves into the next room and gets a completely different response, you're limiting your whole school effectiveness because you've got all those different approaches.

And for pupils who are already struggling, that inconsistency can make the school day feel a bit like a lottery. This is exactly the kind of issue we help schools work through inside Behaviour 360. Because when schools are then stuck in firefighting mode because of that inconsistency, even though everyone's doing their best, staff can end up pulling in different directions.

One person's got one strategy, another person has another. Some staff feel confident. Others feel like they're always on the back foot, like they're guessing how to get behaviour right. Behaviour 360 gives school leaders a way to get everyone in their school on the same page with practical training staff can return to whenever they need it. So instead of reacting to the same problems over and over, as a leader, you can start planning ahead.

You can build a shared understanding of what might be causing the behaviours you're seeing in your classroom and agree common approaches and embed them. It gives staff strategies that they can actually use in the classrooms and corridors and playgrounds in your school. If that sounds useful for your school and your staff, you can find out more about Behaviour 360 over at beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/behaviour360. That's all one word with 360 spelled as numbers.

That's beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/behaviour360, all one word with 360 spelled as numbers 360. I'll put a direct link in the show notes as well. One thing I do want to say about this issue before we finish today is pupils do need to learn things that they don't feel like doing, work that they find boring. That's not just part of school. That's part of life.

And we're not doing children any favours if we kind of send them the message that every task must feel exciting before it's worth attempting. Not every lesson can feel like it's been put on at Disneyland or it can't be delivered at the pace of 50 TikTok shorts mashed together. That's not the real world.

But the follow-up truth to that is that some pupils do need more help getting to the point where they can manage the demands they experience in the classroom. They need the task made clearer or chunking, or they need the first step to be made smaller. They need conversations about their progress or lack of progress or behaviour handled privately.

They need to experience success before they can have confidence, and they need adults who are emotionally intelligent enough that they can see past the surface of the words, "I don't care," and wonder what's driving them underneath. Before we finish, if this episode made you think of a colleague, don't keep it to yourself. Do please share it with them.

And if you're a school leader, feel free to share it with your staff if they're struggling with the issues that we've discussed in this episode. We know some leaders are clipping out sections of the podcast to use as a prompt for discussion in staff meetings, and I'm absolutely fine with that. You can actually download the audio to each episode by visiting the podcast page on our website, beaconschoolsupport.co.uk, going to the podcast page and finding the episode that you want.

And then all you have to do is click the share button on the player for that episode, and you'll actually see an option to download it. If a five-minute section helps your team have useful conversations about what pupils might be communicating through their behaviour when they say, "I don't care," then feel free to use it. That's exactly the kind of thing this podcast is here to help with.

Thanks for listening today. I'm off to struggle with a packet of ibuprofen. The packet will win. And now when you hear me use the words, "I don't care," you'll know I really chuffing do. Have a brilliant week, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of School Behaviour Secrets.