Janine Dodds: 0:44

My question is, well, what are you achieving by punishing somebody? Because it just builds resentment. We're not solving what the issue is. You know, this child's obviously angry about something. Let's separate the behaviour from the person and let's see why that behaviour is happening.

Simon Currigan: 0:59

Welcome to the school behaviour secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and of course students. When classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're going to share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management behaviour, your special needs whole school strategy and more all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear their latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the school behaviour secrets podcast. Welcome to Episode 22 of the school behaviour secrets podcast. We're recording this podcast from behaviour towers, let's say towers. It's actually a shed on a mall with a reasonable internet connection and good access to moss. Today we have an interview with head teacher Janine Dodds, he was going to talk to us about her school's journey of moving away from consequences and punishments for misbehaviour and replacing that system with restorative practice in school.

Emma Shackleton: 2:04

If you've not come across a restorative practice before, it's an alternative approach to resolving short and long term disputes by encouraging children to think about the impact of their actions on others. And as Janine will explain, the technique can even be used to help adults resolve conflict to

Simon Currigan: 2:23

that was the voice of my co host, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma.

Emma Shackleton: 2:26

Hi, Simon.

Simon Currigan: 2:27

Emma, let me ask you a question. What do you think is the most difficult obstacle when they try to implement a new system in school?

Emma Shackleton: 2:35

That's a great question. I think in education, we're so used to having new initiatives thrown at us and being expected to take them on and run with them at the drop of a hat. A good analogy for staff takeoff is like a bus journey. as senior leadership team you're responsible for driving the bus forward, some of your staff will happily hop on at the beginning of the journey and go with you. Others will want to think about it first and might join you a few stops later. Some staff might never want to get on that bus at all. And they might leave or they might be disgruntled about the new initiative. And hopefully a very small number of staff might actually lay down in front of the bus obstructing its progress. I guess what I'm trying to say is leading staff and bringing everyone with you when you take on a new idea or system can be tricky. There's another

Simon Currigan: 3:25

truth. In today's interview with Janine Dodds, she talks about how her staff came together to adopt a restorative approach to solving problems. Her school knew that they needed to move away from a consequence system that just didn't work. The interview is a candid insight into the benefits of moving towards this approach, and gives hints and tips about what your score can do to overcome obstacles to implementing restorative practice in your school. So let's jump into that interview now and find out more about restorative practice with Janine Dodds.

Emma Shackleton: 4:00

I'd like to introduce our guest today, Janine Dodds is the head teacher of a large Primary School in South Birmingham. She's been in her current school for around seven years as before she was head she was deputy head there. And today Janine is going to talk to us about the restorative approach. I'm delighted to have Janine here with me today. Welcome to the show.

Janine Dodds: 4:20

Thank you very much.

Emma Shackleton: 4:21

So first of all, can you tell us a little bit about your school and where it is and what sort of demographic it serves.

Janine Dodds: 4:29

We're in Druid Hill, which is an outer city Ward located in the south of Birmingham, the area is in the top 10% in the country for deprivation, we have 81% free school meals there. We've got 32% of children with sem D, and 28% of them have EA l we do have very high levels of deprivation. It's an area that is due for regeneration. But we're still waiting for that to happen.

Emma Shackleton: 4:54

And can you tell me why did you decide to look at the restorative approach in your school? What led you to do that?

Janine Dodds: 5:01

It was just shortly after I started working there as a deputy head the head teacher had only been in situ for probably about 10 months, the school have gone through a very turbulent time and the name of the school wasn't very good. It was known for bad behaviour in the school that had a lot of head teachers come in and go in and cover it was requires improvement. So there was a lot going on there that actually without behaviour, it was about the learning as well. So when we got there, they use the normal behaviour strategies, charts, stickers, but wasn't consistent across school and staff relied heavily on senior leaders to deal with behaviour issues that were happening. So the head teacher then went off to a meeting and there was a pilot for the restorative approach. So we decided as a school that we'd like to have a goat that so the trainer came in did a delivery to the senior leadership team, we liked what we saw, they then went to Governor's and did a presentation to them, they liked it as well. So we decided as a school, we would take this forward, we thought it would be a way of children having a voice. Because a lot of our children were coming to school with experiencing trauma, adverse childhood experiences, we've got a high level of Child Protection there. So the behaviour of being shamed, being sent out of class wasn't good for their self esteem. And actually, it wasn't solving any problems, all it was doing was manifesting more and making them more and more angry, we thought this would be a good approach, our children come in with very low language skills. So they hadn't got the language to be able to solve problems, or say how they were feeling or actually talk to people, it was more about shouting, you know, they've been used to being shouted at in school, they've been used to be shouted at home. So they did it with their peers. And that's how they saw it was a way of solving problems. It also was that actually, our children were going back into class after they'd had problems at lunchtime. We know lunch times is always a Sparky time, and they were carried on. So it affected learning. It disrupted classes. So we just thought this would be a way of looking at a different approach.

Emma Shackleton: 7:06

So that sounds like quite a big transformation in your school. Can you describe a little bit about how you got that ball rolling, and how you started implementing this fastly new strategy and approach in your school,

Janine Dodds: 7:20

we weren't staff. And we said, This is what we want to do. So we did a staff meeting. first to introduce it to say, we know there were issues, we know that people want the solutions. As soon as leaders we can't be in every classroom, solving the issues with behaviour, we did a whole day staff training with the trainers. And that was a whole school, because it got to be a whole school approach it did got to be everybody. So that was the office staff, cleaning staff, the lunchtime supervisors, everybody was involved, we went through what the restorative approach was how we do it, we all had to do roleplay. And we all mixed up. So everybody knew that this was going to be a consistent approach in school. And this was the language that we were going to be using. with children, we had some resistance from some staff, because a lot of people come in with their own ideas about behaviour about punishments, they thought children should be punished for what they did, but we still went with it. With our staff, with a lot of people, we all have been brought up different. We've all got different values. So bringing us all together and trying to get us all on the same page, we knew was going to be an uphill battle with some staff. And you know, I challenge my perception as well. Because you know, here we are. Now all of a sudden doing this, it's a different way. But I've done a lot of work on behaviour when I was at university, and part of my dissertation was about behaviour. So it seemed the next step for me, I thought this was the right way. So we started in the September, we introduced it to the children, we told them, we did a big assembly with them, he said this is what's going to happen, because the way we're solving problems isn't helping anybody, everybody's getting upset. And we need to be able to repair what's been done and move on. And for us to come up with the solution not for us to come up with it. So we've talked to them about the fact that we're not doing it to them, we were doing it with them. So we're going to facilitate them. And we're going to give them the language to be able to do that. So we started and it was funny, you could tell children were very shocked about Oh, right. They've had a falling out. Let's go and talk about this. We'd sit down and we talked with the charge, you know, and it was you know, what happened, what was happening before and all of those things that we went through. So everybody had a script to use. So we were all using the same language. Do you mean, do

Emma Shackleton: 9:29

you think that script gave the staff confidence that they knew exactly what you meant? Because I guess some people might have already had experience of the approach. And for some people, it would have been brand new. So do you think the script was valuable in getting everybody on the same page and giving them some tools

Janine Dodds: 9:47

yet because it gave a structure? So you'd start off with? You know, well, what happened? What was happening before? So they knew that that was their first question, and the children started? And then that was the first question. And they were all given a voice. So it was like, well, we're gonna have this restorative conversation that was so we're all going to listen. So we're going to start with you first and with you. Now, what they didn't do some people is think Well, actually, at that point, that child wasn't ready for that restorative conversation. So there was a lot of modelling around that. Because if Trump was angry, it was no good doing a restorative conversation because they weren't ready. So it was, are you ready to have this conversation? Can we do this now, as senior leaders, we were out on the playground at lunchtime break times. So we were there and we were doing those conversations. If we were called to lessons, we do exactly the same. But that became an issue because some staff would still call for us to do this. So it was then that we said right, okay, we've got so far and we've done really well at their staff were taken on board. And actually it was working really well. But we're still getting particular people send in for us to go and solve the problem. So we kind of said, right, okay, we've got to be a bit firmer here. We've got to say, right? Have you had this conversation? So we looked at our behaviour policies while at that point, because it didn't reflect the restorative approach. We said, right? What are we going to put in here that staff can follow this and know that's the process, the children need to know that the conversation is going to happen, it might not happen then. But it's going to happen. It doesn't take me as a senior leader coming in, because I have no idea what's going on in that lesson. staff were a bit funny about it, they had a bit of an issue, they were saying, so we can't call anybody if there's an issue. We said, No, you can call someone, but what you've got to do is try and discuss with the children what's happened. And if they issues with you, you need to have that conversation. It's not always between children, you know, the staff get harmed if the lessons disrupted and the children needed to know when harm isn't just physical, it can be a disruption of a lesson, it can be, you know, shouting out those types of things that you want to talk to children about. So the children started to understand that harm wasn't physical, it could be anything, really. So we put the behaviour policy that took about seven or eight months to get into it, that we decided that actually there was a gap there that we needed to fill. And then because it was a pilot, we'd have like a baseline. And then at the end of the year, we looked at where we were, and we did say that things had improved. But there were still little pockets that needed ironing out as you would with anything coming in now. But we had seen the change, and the children had seen the change as well. So they'd recognise that staff, actually were talking to them listening to them, they were actually given a chance to share their views and say what had gone on. And one of the things that turned it around for me was they weren't using this, which staff thought they were they weren't using this to get out of lessons, because what we put in there was okay, this conversation might not happen now. But it will happen. So if I'm teaching, I can't do this conversation, but at a time, that's good for both of us, we will do it. So we've gone down that part with them. We also went down the route of that we didn't raise voices, it was a conversation. Because if you're having a conversation with somebody, you don't get crossed with them. And if you're calm, the children will stay calm as well. So we've got to that point, then we're still working on it. Now. We're five, six years down the line. And we're still working on it now. Because we see things that we think watch, we need to tweak it, the journey we've been on is massive, you know, when you think about the change that we've had,

Emma Shackleton: 13:12

and like you say, sometimes it is nice to stop and do that. Because when you're on that treadmill, you don't always see how far you've come as a school. Do you feel like it's an ever evolving process, and you do need to keep revisiting and keep checking back that everybody's on the same page?

Janine Dodds: 13:29

Yeah, we have regular things where we look at our behaviour wasn't behaviour policy, it's actually a behaviour support policy. Now, it's not management, we're not managing behaviour, we're supporting children to make right choices and to improve behaviour. So we constantly are looking at things because children come in with different things. So you have to kind of think how you're going to look at that and how you're going to support them in school. Recently, we worked at looking at our behaviour support policy, again, because we got to a point where you know, the children were having these conversations. So we know that this type of strategy in school works for 95% of the children. But there are those children that you know, some things don't work for, and you have to look at it, and it becomes extreme behaviour. And it doesn't matter how much time you spend in with them doing all of those things. They need something counts, and it could be an intervention from an outside agency. So we've worked with you to actually develop our policy and look at the graduated approach and put in behaviour plans, because staff was saying, Well, so what we've got to this point, but this job isn't making a difference. They're not making a change. Those were things that we've looked at as staff as well, because we've also had training with adverse childhood experiences. We were trauma informed in school because we knew that impacted on children's behaviour, and we needed that background to be able to support children. So we are constantly reviewing our behaviour in school and looking at it because we do have quite challenging behaviour in school. But I would say now, five, six years on, it's much more settled. And it is only a small percentage of children that we have in school that we have to support more than the restorative approach.

Simon Currigan: 15:10

Just like to take a pause for a moment and say that if you find this podcast useful, then you're going to love what we've got waiting for you in our inner circle programme. The inner circle is your one stop shop for all things behaviour. It's a comprehensive platform filled with videos, resources and behaviour inspiration to get you unstuck with classroom behaviour. We've got training resources on de escalation, supporting kids with anxiety support strategies for conditions like autism, ADHD and PDA. practical ways of helping pupils deal with strong emotions. 30 behaviour management techniques for managing the whole classroom setting out your classroom environment for success resetting behaviour with tricky classes, and more. Our online videos walk you through practical solutions, step by step, just like Netflix, you can turn an inner circle subscription on or off whenever you need to, with no minimum contract to follow us, you can now get your first seven days of inner circle for just one pound. Get the behaviour answers, and you've been looking forward today with inner circle, visit beaconschoolsupport.co.uk co.uk. And click on the inner circle picture near the top of the homepage for more information.

Emma Shackleton: 16:25

Have you noticed any changes in the relationships between the adults and the children in general? Do you think that school feels different? Have the children been surprised that the adults are now treating them differently and talking to them in a different way?

Janine Dodds: 16:39

Yeah. And I think that's more so the children now that have been on the journey with us. So those that have been five years, it started at the beginning, no more easy to convince, because it had been ingrained in them about punishment. someone saying, well, let's go and have a chat about this. And I'm like, what, you know what's going on who wants to talk about it, but the ones that have been on the journey with us, they use that language now. So we've got peer mediators that actually support children, as I said, we've got peer mediators out on the playground that use the same script that the staff do. So they've been trained to do that as well. I did a conversation with a child just yesterday. And I said, Well, yeah, we're gonna have a conversation. And actually, it's two children with quite significant needs. I said, like what happened, and then went through the process. And they said, Well, we know we've got to do something about this with to be able to move on. Now, to me, that was a breakthrough, because I actually thought I haven't had to do this, they've come through, and they've done it themselves. So they are actually starting to use the language themselves. As staff, you're not facilitating it as much, you're sitting there, you're listening to them, the majority of them trust us that we're going to listen, and that we're going to come up with a solution together, rather than it being done to them or not being signed to them what you're going to miss your break, or you're going to miss your dinner. We have a conversation with them. But we don't take things away from them. It sounds like it's much less of a power struggle.

Emma Shackleton: 18:03

And it sounds like you're all on the same side, if you like now, do you think the children feel that and that you're in it together?

Janine Dodds: 18:09

Yes, I do before it was that authoritarian model we used you know, we were in charge. And you did as you were told, as an adult, you know, you listen to us. But actually, if we're not listening to them, we can't expect them to listen to us. The trust is there. And the relationships are much better. They know with their class teacher or with another member of staff, they can have those conversations.

Emma Shackleton: 18:32

That's real progress, isn't it?

Janine Dodds: 18:34

Yeah. You know, it's something that we have to keep doing all the time, you have to keep practising it. Because children change as we know, they come in, you get different children come in, but haven't done it. It's new to them, particularly children have been excluded from the schools, and they've come to ours. And it's changed for them. Because they're not being Centre for classes. They're not doing this. And I'd say it never happens. Because sometimes children do come to me, you know, and we sit and have a conversation and we fill in reflection sheets. And we talked about you know, who's been harmed? I think parents have been our hardest, hardest one to break. Because you know, if they've done something wrong, they need to be punished. And I've had a few conversations with parents where I've said, we've had a restorative conversation. And it's like, well, what's that? You know? So even they've had letters, and it's on the website and things. So if somebody is hurt their child, well, what have you done about it? Have you excluded them? No, we haven't excluded them. We've had a restorative conversation we've moved on, they've come up with their own solution as to how to move forward on this. And it's interesting, because children are very honest. And they will say, Well, I think I want to miss my playtime. Because of this, they come up with what they should do to repair the harm or an apologies, because it's easy to say sorry. So we have an understanding, if we're saying sorry, it means that we won't do this again, we'll try not to do it again, because we're not perfect. And all of us make mistakes. So we go down that path with them. So we've got some work to do with parents still. So we're still looking at that. And our new behaviour support policies that we've done a page document for parents to send out so they can see this is how it's progressed for them. So even now, we're still tweaking things. And going back,

Emma Shackleton: 20:11

lots of the parents may not have had experience of a restorative approach for themselves. And it might sound to them like you're not doing anything because nobody's being punished. So it's bringing them on board as well, I guess, isn't it

Janine Dodds: 20:24

what it is? Because, you know, everybody always says they've got to be punished. My question is, well, what are you achieving by punishing somebody? Because it just builds resentment. We're not solving what the issue is, you know, this child's obviously angry about something, let's separate the behaviour from the person and let's see why that behaviour is happening. And that was kind of a real big change. In stop thinking, we don't punish children, we talk to them. And we're actually making a change. We're separating it. Everybody is doing it. We're all consistent in what we're doing.

Emma Shackleton: 20:54

And would you say that's the secret to making a restorative approach work in schools, revisiting role modelling, getting your policy in line checking, everybody's on board, supporting people to follow the policy? Yeah, I

Janine Dodds: 21:10

think it is that it's that consistency across. I mean, underpinning all of that we did a lot of work around trauma, we did a lot of work about adverse childhood experiences. We've done emotion coaching, we've looked at zones of regulation. So all of those kind of underpin. So what we're doing as a school is trying to build the language that children can use to express themselves without, you know, having a fight or getting crass and angry by explaining that it's okay to be angry, but it's what you do with that anger afterwards, and how you move. So we've gone into this now, zones of regulation. So you know, yes, you're angry, let's see what we can do to get you down into this zone. And if we do that, we can have a conversation. So how do you feel now we're building on it, we're looking at all ways of actually making it so children can build their resilience, they can build their language. So actually, when they go out into the wide world, you know, when they go to secondary school, when they go out into the job market, they're going to come up against things, but it's how they solve those issues. What are they going to do, you know, without blowing up arguing, fighting,

Emma Shackleton: 22:13

it sounds like the restorative approach is one piece of the jigsaw and the wider picture of you helping to understand where the children's behaviours are coming from, and helping the children to understand how they are feeling. And building in that emotional regulation, too.

Janine Dodds: 22:29

We knew, you know, all behaviours have a reason it's not the child, it's things that they are expressing, we know with the makeup of our children coming in, that a lot of them coming in with trauma or adverse childhood experiences. So we know that we had to look at all of that, to ensure that we got a full picture of how to support them. So it wasn't just one size fits all, it was everything. So you draw on all of that information to actually support that. Because if you haven't got the knowledge behind it, you don't understand how that child's feeling or what they've gone through, you don't got that empathy with them. And I think that was something that stuck out to build empathy and understand what it was their everyday life looked like and why they were behaving in that way.

Emma Shackleton: 23:09

And would you say that this approach works with all children, or have you ever come across children in your school who this just absolutely doesn't work for and they won't engage with it, or they don't get it? Or it's just not for them?

Janine Dodds: 23:23

I mean, we've had a couple of children where they've have been permanently excluded, I will say where that hasn't worked. But it's normally been when they've been at the top of the school, and they haven't been all the way through school. So they haven't had that prolonged experience. And it has been a one off thing where you know, it's been quite severe. When I first went there, the exclusion rates were really high. But now, thankfully, thankfully, they are a lot lower. On fact, I haven't had to exclude anybody. So that's a good sign to start off with, I suppose really, we try everything. And that was that thing about, you know, we've got to this point. So what about that child that is not working for what are we doing? Do we need outside support in so it's going through that graduated approach to make sure that we're doing the best for this child? And making sure that any support they need? If it's not the restorative approach? You know, if they can't cope with that, what else do they need? I think it can work with everybody. It just takes a little bit more time for some children.

Emma Shackleton: 24:19

And what would you say to teachers or parents who are sceptical or resistance to this approach? What are your top tips for persuading people that this is the way forward,

Janine Dodds: 24:31

I would say you have to get time, because it's not a quick fix. So you have to invest, you have to be truthful, you have to be respectful, resilient, because at times, you know, you do have to have those challenging conversations. And above all, I think it is an investment for children. And I think this is for me, if it if it's something we want to change, it's about changing behaviour. And you have to give it your all and you have to invest in it. I mean, for me, it's thinking, why have we done it? What are we doing it for? And I think it's about providing a safe environment, and an opportunity to discuss issues encouraging appropriate behavioural change, because we want the behaviour to change, not the person, we want the behaviour to change. And also, this is about engaging, engaging children and adults with dignity and respect, because I've used it with staff as well, I've got to say, not just adults, as well, we've used it with staff. So it's not just for children, it's for everybody, and actually giving children a chance to talk about how they think and how they feel. Because they don't always get the opportunity because we're so busy doing all of this that actually they don't get the chance to talk about that and know what emotions are and actually for me doing all of this I think is lead to a shared understanding a shared understanding of how children behave, what actually gives them that reason for that behaviour, and then looking at ways to help them overcome this, because these are the foundation years. And if we don't get this right here, by the time they're getting further and further up, you know, they get lost in the system. And then the outcomes aren't good for them. We want better outcomes. And we want them to be citizens actually can go out and have a full life that they can solve problems and have that resilience to deal with anything that life throws at them.

Emma Shackleton: 26:18

just picking up on what you said there, Janine about the process, not just being for children. Could you tell me a little bit more about how you've used this process with

Janine Dodds: 26:26

adults, one particular one that sticks out? When we were first doing this? A parent who wasn't happy that the conversations were just happening, and there wasn't a punishment for the child and was quite aggressive towards a member of staff? So korth parenting while did us stuff first, I said, Would you mind if we called the parent in and we had a restorative conversation, let's look at doing a restorative conversation with her so that she can say, this is what we do in school. So she agreed she was open to that the parent came in and said, Well, this is what we do in school. Now, you know, we've talked about this, this is how we deal with issues in school, and actually the way you've behaved, I'm going to ask the teacher to say to you how it's made her feel. So she did that. And then the parent said the same, and then we move on. I said, so from this, I said, What can we move on from what do we need to do to move on? So we were using the same process, but the parent didn't realise that we're actually doing that? When we finished? I said to the parent, no. Are you happy now with this solution? Are you happy with what's happened? She said, Yes, yes, I'm happy now I can understand, you know, what's gone on what came out, the member of staff said, that was much better than getting into a conflict with a parent. And I've asked staff, you know, if they've had disagreements just didn't happen very often. But when they've had disagreements, just to go away and have a conversation, use the process that we've got, find out what's upsetting them. And let's come up with a solution. So it isn't just the children we use it with, with everybody. But actually, it gives you a better feeling. It's a much nicer place to work in, if

Emma Shackleton: 27:52

you've got that kind of basis to be able to say to someone, actually, you know, I'm not happy with what you've just done. And this is the reason why. So that's major change as well, because people don't go home feeling resentful about somebody that's upset them that day, they've actually sorted it out. And it's good for their own well being as well. I think what I'm hearing is that it's a much less confrontational approach. So people are able to listen to each other, because there is an onus on being listened to and being heard. It's creating that dynamic where everybody gets chance to have their say, and talk about how that mistake or that behaviour has impacted them, and then move it forward.

Janine Dodds: 28:33

That's exactly it. That's exactly in a nutshell. And I wish we could do that in a year or in two months. But it does take time, because it's changing people's perceptions. And it's changing people's own personal views and values. If you've got staff, which I you know, I'm really lucky with our staff, they're on board, and they know and they want the best for the children. So we've done a long journey, and we're still on that journey. And I don't think we'll ever get off that journey, because you know, things will happen. And we think, Oh, actually, we need to do that we need to tweak that. We're not going to make major changes. Now. It's just little tweaks. So if new staff come, they do a training, so they know this is how we work. When they come look around in school, we say this is what we do as a school. This is the value we have. So if you're used to punishments, we don't do punishments here, that's not what happens.

Emma Shackleton: 29:19

Janine, I think you've described the process in your school brilliantly. And it sounds like he's had a huge impact. If anybody's listening to the podcast today, and they're interested in finding out more about a restorative approach, what would your advice to them be?

Janine Dodds: 29:35

I would say go for it. It's really work for our school. It's work for our children, go and find out more about it, have a look, read upon it. But I think it's the way forward and I think a lot of councils are using this in their workplaces as well. Now, I think it's a way forward. And I think anybody would find it useful to go and see in practice so that you can see whether or not it would fit your school. If you want to change the way that you manage behaviour or support behaviour. I think it's an ideal thing to be looking at and to make a change to build relationships, positive relationships in school.

Emma Shackleton: 30:09

Thank you so much for your time today. Janine, I find that really interesting. And I'm sure our listeners will too. Thanks very much. Bye, bye, bye.

Simon Currigan: 30:18

That was a great insight into how a real school managed to shift their whole school ethos in a more respectful direction. And I love the way that Jeanine spoke about bringing parents staff and pupils along with them and how that journey is continuous.

Emma Shackleton: 30:33

Yes, it just shows that to make lasting change. You really do need to take the time to monitor, revisit and regroup with all stakeholders to ensure that everyone is on the same page. And if

Simon Currigan: 30:45

you haven't heard it yet, today's interview links really nicely with the interview I did with Sarah hoggle. From peacemakers, way back in Episode Four. So if you haven't heard that yet, feel free to go back to that and other episodes and listen for more great ideas, strategies and tips.

Emma Shackleton: 31:02

Of course, if you're experiencing lots of arguments falling out and off task behaviour during lesson time, there might be some simple tweaks that you could make to the way that you've organised the environment, or the format of your lessons that could really improve behaviour in class. If that sounds interesting to you, we've got a completely free download that goes with this episode, called the classroom management score sheet. Inside the score sheets, you'll find a list of 37 factors that have an impact on classroom behaviour, the score

Simon Currigan: 31:34

sheets or list of things that you're doing or not doing. Think of it as a clear roadmap to improve your presence in the classroom. It's based on 1000s of observations that Ella and I have conducted between us. So you know, it's based on sound classroom practice. And if you're supporting a colleague with their classroom management, it can help make your feedback and action points even more clear and objective.

Emma Shackleton: 31:56

Get it now by going to beacon school support.co.uk, clicking on the free resources option in the menu, and you'll find it near the top of the page. It's completely free. So go and get it today. Thanks for listening to the show today. Next week, we're going to look at the surprising findings of how extrinsic rewards such as stickers and star charts affects pupil motivation. If your school uses extrinsic rewards to motivate students to behave well, you won't want to miss this episode.

Simon Currigan: 32:28

So open your podcast app now and tap the subscribe button. Do it as gently as if you were showing affection to a hummingbird by giving it a friendly tap on the beak, which I should say is the internationally recognised way of communicating with hummingbirds. That will encourage your podcast app to automatically download each and every episode of school behaviour secrets when it's released each Tuesday, so you never miss a thing.

Emma Shackleton: 32:51

If you find today's podcast useful, why not be a great mate and recommend it to one friend. You could either send them a message or simply use the share button in your podcast app. Thank you for listening to school behaviour secrets. Have a great week and we look forward to talking to you again in the next episode. Bye no bye