Simon Currigan: 0:44

This episode has been sponsored by our friends at Team Satchel, head to the episode description to find out more about their special discount on all of their behaviour management tools.

Pamela Tseu: 0:54

Students want to succeed, they want to they don't wake up in the morning saying I am going to mess up my teacher's life today. They go, I want to succeed today. And when we are clear, and we care about them, we change the trajectory for their day, or for their career or for their lifetime, right? Because we are giving them the tools that they need to be successful. And when we do that, of course, they're going to want to behave.

Simon Currigan: 1:18

Welcome to the school behaviour secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and of course students. When classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're going to share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management behavioural special needs, whole school strategy and more all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear their latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the school behaviour secrets podcast. Hello, and welcome to Episode 26 of school behaviour secrets. You got here just in time because we make cakes, although only please take your fair share, because no one wants to repeat what happened last time you popped around. My co host Emma is here. Welcome to the show, Emma.

Emma Shackleton: 2:13

Hi there,

Simon Currigan: 2:14

Emma, as ever, I've got a question to ask you. Before we talk about today's interview, what is your favourite pastime? And what motivates you to do it?

Emma Shackleton: 2:25

I think I'm one of those people who has phases on different hobbies or activities. So I've tried lots and lots of different things. But the one pastime that I always return to is exercise, even when I don't really feel like working out I make myself do it. Because I know that I'm going to feel both mentally and physically better afterwards. So that's my motivation to do it. What about you, Simon? What do you enjoy doing?

Simon Currigan: 2:52

I enjoy reading and I enjoy playing a piano and messing around with bits of music and listening to music, I find they really relax me. They're really kind of meditative. And that's why I enjoy doing them. I asked because today we're speaking to Pamela Tseu who's put together seven tools that make classroom management better. She says that when teachers use these tools, it's improved classroom motivation and gets kids behaving well without having to spoon feed them with rewards or relying on consequences. And she's going to talk through how these tools work in an interview.

Emma Shackleton: 3:24

That sounds interesting. So it's really about motivation and why we do things. But before we get to classroom management tools, I've got a small request to make from our listeners. If you find today's episode useful, please leave us an honest rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps other teachers and school leaders find us, helping them get the answers they need about emotions and behaviour in school. It takes literally 30 seconds. So now here's Simon's interview with Pamela.

Simon Currigan: 3:57

I'd like to say a big welcome to the show today to our guest, Pamela Tseu. Pamela has worked as an educator for a whole career and is on a mission to transform how we do classroom management. Her aim is to help students not just behave better, but desire to behave better. To help teachers achieve this, she's developed seven tools to improve classroom management. And she describes her approach as classroom management without rewards, punishment, or wasted learning time. She's got a lot of interesting things to say about schools behaviour and classroom management. And I know there's going to be lots of practical information that you're going to be able to take away and start using immediately. Pamela, welcome to the show.

Pamela Tseu: 4:36

Thank you so much, good to be here.

Simon Currigan: 4:38

So let's start with your seven tools, you developed the seven tools to improve classroom management. But before we get on to the tools themselves, and how to use them, what led you to develop them?

Pamela Tseu: 4:48

First of all, if I can just interject a few reasons that this system I'm using quotes here is different. And the reason I want to say that real quickly is because a lot of my answers will be threaded into these reasons. So the first reason we're different is because it's how we teach behaviours. Second is that all the tools are in one place, because that's very frustrating for us teachers to have to look everywhere when behaviour problems occur. And then finally, that we're proactive in the way we approach misbehaviors. So with that being said, How did I develop these seven tools? I think what I really want to focus on is not so much the tools because when we talk about the tools, you'll see that they're not totally new. So it's not like Pam developed these tools. It's more of the system and how we use the tools. What led to that. That was a big build up to this. But what led to that is basically just frustration. I'm just like every other teacher out there where we're trying to figure out a better way to do something when it came down to Classroom management, I feel like I was sort of like a tiger mom, if I have to care about this more than you, I will you and I use a lot of those casual threats. Well, let's work during recess, then you know those types of things and taking away things and those subtle kind of ways of doing punishment. And I didn't like that my students did well academically, because that was the bottom line. But I found that it was not the way that I wanted to get good classroom management. So I went the other way. And I happened to read a book on positive parenting, they talked about positives and giving reinforcements, and then that led into rewards. And so I did a lot of that for many, many years. And then what I found about that, it was tiring, it was exhausting. We spent a lot of money right on rewards, we spent a lot of money, a lot of learning time, it's hard to keep track of it. And bottom line is, it really didn't work. I mean, I found that it wasn't working day in and day out. Sometimes it didn't, sometimes it didn't. So then I took a step back. And I said, What What would it take for someone to want to behave? And why are we doing behaviour modification, when we should really be doing behaviour motivation? Why aren't we looking at what makes someone want to behave? And that's when I put this into play? I thought, Okay, what is it that would make it and that's when I came up with the seven tools. And then through time and teaching teachers and using it and additional research, we found that how we use the tools together was more important than the tools themselves. And that process. That's how I got there was just basic frustration, and there's got to be something better. It's just my psychology thinking the way that I think my first bachelor's is in psychology. How do people think what makes them tick?

Simon Currigan: 7:25

What did you learn along the way, going through that process? Starting with a sort of very traditional approach with consequences and rewards? What did you learn that surprised you on that journey?

Pamela Tseu: 7:34

The first thing that I learned was that it was exhausting. I really did think it worked. I was almost on a track to market that, you know, how do you give rewards? How do you give point systems? What is the psychology behind that? How do you do it more efficiently? I was on that track. So I was pretty proud of myself at one point. But then when I yeah, but then when I thought about it, that's really not the easy way to do things. To be honest, that's a very good question, because I never really thought about it. But I think what pushed me out of it was just that it was so hard. And it was costing me a lot of money. So it was kind of selfish. And I thought then in that case, what would be better? And of course, we always talk about intrinsic motivation, right? What can we do to help the students want to behave? And I also went that route as well, I thought, well, you know, if we extrinsically, motivate them to do something, then they find the success, then hopefully, they find the intrinsic motivation to continue to do it. I went the outside route, but that I found was exhausting again, I just continued to do research on just human behaviour, and what makes people tick.

Simon Currigan: 8:36

Okay, so when you work with teachers, and you see the impact of using these systems, and the seven tools, what do you see what is the impact in the classroom?

Pamela Tseu: 8:44

Oh, that's a beautiful question. Because my job and the whole reason for the system is to make the teacher's job easier. Right? So when we see that, then I know that their success in addition to additional learning, right, so my two goals is to simplify teacher's job, and to increase learning, right? I mean, there are a lot of side goals, as well as you know, improving the tone in the classroom and things like that. But those are my two main goals. So when I see that in the classroom, then that's the main impact is it simplifies the teacher's job. And the way that it does that is that when we use these tools proactively to build, I think there's a book, it's not there on my shelf, it's the first six weeks of school, you know, those types of things were How do you build your foundation of good classroom management starting from the beginning of the year, right. And we know that that's important. And so when teachers use these tools to do that, what we're doing is preventing misbehaviors, right, and that is the main goal, of course, but that's also this goal is when we use the right tools, then we are able to actually attain that classroom environment where the students want to behave. So we're not fixing behaviours, we're preventing them. And that's how we know that it's successful. In fact, yesterday, I was at a training with teachers, we played this fun game, putting down behaviour issues on little bingo cards with you, you know how you play bingo, and you make your own card, right? So we put down the behaviours that they want to eventually get rid of, right? And so we kept that. And I said, Let's keep that because when we use these tools, those misbehaviors that you wrote on here that we made fun of actually, when those misbehaviors are gone, then we know we've been successful in classroom management,

Simon Currigan: 10:18

as a teacher that's got to make teaching feel less stressful, less tiring, more rewarding?

Pamela Tseu: 10:23

Absolutely. I use the analogy of a boat. When we're using the correct tools, then it's like a motor on the boat. We're just smooth sailing, right? I mean, every so often, you gotta adjust, maybe make sure you have gas, but that's a lot better than a rowboat. You know, when we're just every day we're constantly trying to figure things out and Isn't that the goal right and then when we can simplify that, when we can have students want to behave, then we can teach and our job just got easier.

Team Satchel: 10:52

Good behaviour management ensures a positive learning environment. And with Satchels Behaviour Pro, teachers have everything they need to reward and encourage positive student behaviour. Award points and create custom badges for good behaviour or choose to refer incidents to more senior team members. Visit www.teamsatchel.com or call us on 02071979550 choose option one and quote behaviour podcast for 20% off.

Simon Currigan: 11:22

right then. So let's dig into these tools. The tools are the teaching expectations with exactness tool, the care component tool, the focus intervention tool, the effective and engaging Lessons tool, the classroom setup tool, the preparing yourself tool and the self control tool. Now, today, we're not going to have time to dig into all seven of these. So I'd like to do a deep dive on two, can you tell us about the care component tool,

Pamela Tseu: 11:47

it's one of my favourites because it really is the foundation of the success of the rest of the tools. The care component tool basically is building relationships. And I know teachers out there, we'll know how important that is, it is extremely important to build relationships. And I'm not sure if we actually know how impactful that is to getting the behaviours we want. My job again to simplify teachers jobs is to connect the dots, that's what we were saying kind of at the beginning is that these tools will not seem brand spanking new. But I'm just helping to find more use out of these tools. So for example, the care component tool is my secret weapon for your most challenging students. And to be cared about that is just a great motivation for them to want to participate. For them to want to do the right things for them to want to even if it's just a straight favourite to you, as a teacher, you asked me to do something, I will do it because I know that you care about me. The tricky thing about this tool is that I think it's misunderstood, I think there's more that we can do with it. For example, we talked about the difference between care and praise. So praise is complimenting and acknowledging a student's behaviour. And we do that very well. But care is acknowledging them for who they are as a person, and that digs deeper to their connection to you. And so the danger of using praise and not care is that we aren't making that heart to heart connection. I mean, praise is good. I mean, who doesn't want to be acknowledged for what they're doing good. But what's more important to building true relationships is building the relationship for who they are, regardless of what they've done. So I tell teachers, if you can actually tell them after they thrown a chair across the room, at the end of the day, you still say, I'm so glad you're in my class, I can't wait to see you tomorrow, that tells the student without a doubt that you deeply, deeply care about who they are, and not necessarily contingent on what they do.

Simon Currigan: 13:41

Why do you think that has such a powerful impact on their behaviour?

Pamela Tseu: 13:43

because as human beings that's a deep need to be cared about and to belong, and to have people want you to be around. That's just human nature. That's what we dig into. That's why when we actually accept the student and the child for that, then that makes them feel more open and willing to be a part of this and to be a part of the success and to want to give back. This is really good, because I think it's basic, but it's kind of hard to explain the studies that bring us to this,

Simon Currigan: 14:14

when we use praise that could be just business, a business relationship between the teacher and the pupil. But what does using care take beyond that business relationship?

Pamela Tseu: 14:23

Well, I think we connect as human beings at that point versus that business relationship. Now, I didn't really think of it that way as well. But that's right, but gets kind of puts a barrier because if you do this, you get this for me, I think of praise being detrimental if care is not used as well, because it's a slight, gentle, indirect form of manipulation, I will pay attention to you only if you do this behaviour. And so that's why it doesn't really connect with the students heart to heart. Whereas if you just did that behaviour, and the student knows that you don't like that behaviour, and it was inappropriate, and it was wrong and detracted from learning. But you still like them, and you still care that they're in your class that just speaks volumes to the connection that you have. And that's what true relationships are.

Simon Currigan: 15:08

Okay, so we've talked about the difference between praise and care and the care component tool. Let's move on to the next tool, which we're going to look at which is the focus intervention tool. How does that work?

Pamela Tseu: 15:20

Just to give you some frame of reference, it's similar and it very much looks like a think time where you reflect on something in the corner. Okay, I very much looks like a timer, but it's extremely different because of how it works with the other tools. So for example, you're showing care of the student knows that you care about them, right? We have that established. I personally only have three expectations that I teach my students throughout the year. One of them is how to pay attention to the speaker, there are three criteria, which is have a quiet voice, looking and have a quiet body. They're very concrete, right? So if I have taught that, then we don't need the focus intervention tool. The focus intervention tool is just an extension. So how it works is the student will, for example, be talking. So what will happen is, as I've taught this procedure as well, which is and I use the acronym fit, going over to the fit table, they fill out a form, it has a few questions. One of them is what did you do wrong? If they cannot say that I did not have a quiet voice, then I didn't really teach that well to them. Because as teachers, if they cannot tell us how to do something back to us, then we didn't teach it well. So that's the key. It's a reflection time. And so it's not only a reflection time, it's a time for us to assess if we've taught them well. Because if they go there and they say I have no idea what I did wrong when I go into classrooms, I asked them that question, have you ever gotten in trouble and not know why and 100% of the time 95% of them raise their hands.

Simon Currigan: 16:42

I'd just like to take a pause for a moment and say that if you're finding this podcast useful, then you're going to love what we've got waiting for you in our inner circle programme. The inner circle is your one stop shop for things behaviour. It's a comprehensive platform filled with videos resources, from behaviour inspiration to get you unstuck with classroom behaviour. We've got training resources on de escalation, supporting kids with anxiety support strategies for conditions like autism, ADHD, and PDA. practical ways of helping pupils deal with strong emotions, assertive behaviour management techniques for managing the whole classroom, setting out your classroom environment for success. Resetting behaviour with tricky classes, and more. Our online videos walk you through practical solutions, step by step, just like Netflix, you can turn an inner circle subscription on or off whenever you need to, with no minimum contract. Plus, you can now get your first seven days of inner circle for just one pound. Get the behaviour answers that you've been looking for today with inner circle, visit www.beaconschoolsupport.co.uk And click on the inner circle picture at the top of the homepage for more information.

Pamela Tseu: 18:01

Have you ever gotten in trouble and not know why can you imagine how frustrating that is? I know it'd be frustrating for me. I don't know how to succeed. And then I get scolded for it. What did I do that I was supposed to do? That's extremely frustrating. It's not setting them up for success. So we're doing that. And so what happens with this tool is the time for us to look at if we taught it well. I've had students say, I don't know what I did wrong. And then I have to go back and reflect on my teaching. So how it works. Basically, they go there, fill out the form, bring it back to me. And we're done. No more lecturing, no more teaching, because I was supposed to do the teaching before they made the mistake not after. Now, if they didn't learn it, then I suppose I have to go back and reteach it reteaching. And I'm using quotes, it's really a punishment for them. They don't want to hear anymore. If they know what they did wrong, then it's just a matter of choice. And this is what I tell them to I said the reason we have this focus intervention tool, the reason we use this is because I've taught it to you, you've succeeded, I've seen you succeed, you know how to do this expectation. So when you don't do it at that point, it's a choice. And that's what I need you to step back and go, what did I think about and that's the accountability, and that's the reflection that needs to happen. And when that happens, it's self acknowledgement. They take responsibility, and they don't do it again. Well, not ever, but it really helps to teach them to not do it anymore.

Simon Currigan: 19:16

That self reflection sounds like it might be something that it takes a while or several goes for the child to be able to access effectively.

Pamela Tseu: 19:24

If we've taught it well, then it shouldn't, for example, when we teach how to do long division, if we've taught it well the first time, and if we've differentiated using teaching expectations with exactly right, how have we taught it to them? If we taught it step by step, assessing their understanding as we go, then we know that they've learned it. And so that should be that.

Simon Currigan: 19:44

So when kids start to take accountability, and they go to the fit table, and they work through the process, and they're able to say which of your concrete expectations that not met. Over time, what's the impact on the child?

Pamela Tseu: 19:54

That is a great question. Well, I have to start with a funny story. Because one time I was teaching the process, okay, if I say this and allow you go to the table, I have the student who said, you know, I'm just going to go over there and fool around and I didn't say anything because I know the power of this. I know the how the tools work together. And I know the respect and the whole system encourages self accountability and all those good things. So I didn't really respond. When I said, Hey, we need you to go to fit. He said, Yes, ma'am. He got up, walked over, filled out the form brought it back to me. No learning time was lost. He stayed in the learning environment. The result is a calm humility. Actually. They understand that they made a choice. That was not appropriate because we build community and they know that when they do something like that, that they're taken away from the class because that's all a part of the teaching. When I taught this expectation, why is it important that we pay attention to the speaker? Why is it important that you don't talk out when we're trying to learn, you know, all the stuff, that part of the conversation, the fact that they're a part of it is building respect and buy in. And so when they do this, they reflect on all of those things. Oh, I just made a mistake I'm taking away from the class, you know, and all those thoughts come back to them and all those feelings, and they can't put it into words. But that humility is like, Yeah, I just, I just messed up. And I know what to do.

Simon Currigan: 21:13

So we've talked about two powerful ideas. So far, we've talked about going beyond praise, using care to build relationships with kids, then we've talked about using your focus intervention tool about helping kids take responsibility for what's happened, and then monitoring their own behaviour in the future, because they want to be part of an important group. When you start using these approaches. And the other five tools you've developed, how quickly can a teacher take on your approach in your system,

Pamela Tseu: 21:37

it really boils down to their ability to do two things, first of all, their ability to learn about and learn how to use the tools and how to use them together the system and how to problem solve, it's their responsibility and how much they absorb and can apply, it really can, it can take place as quickly as the teacher can access it. So for example, the reason I say that is because I go in and substitute teach or guest teach very often because I like to see how these tools work. So I go into classes, and we know how substitutes are received in classrooms, right,

Simon Currigan: 22:11

they get a hard time,

Pamela Tseu: 22:12

they get a hard time. So the fact that these tools work immediately is the power of the tools and how they connect with the students, even though they don't really know who the teachers. So the two factors, right is the teacher being able to use the tools efficiently. And then the second thing is, of course, the students. Now the tricky part is that sometimes it takes a long time for the teacher in this situation to make a change, not so much the teacher, but make a change with the students. Because once I went and consulted with a teacher in April, so already there were seven months of them being used to doing what she was doing. And so she needed to adjust, and the students need to adjust. But the tools do work, and they work eventually, if you stick with them.

Simon Currigan: 22:54

You say embedded in the tools are respect, care, fairness, clear expectations, empathy, and empowerment. How do those aspects work together to improve classroom management?

Pamela Tseu: 23:05

Well, if we put ourselves in the place of the students, if we were in a place where we were respected, and we were cared about, and we were treated fairly, because everybody had an opportunity to succeed, because everybody was taught and prompted to successful behaviours, expectations were clear. So I knew exactly what I needed to do to succeed. There's empathy in the classroom, like teacher gets it, she says, you know, you're not a bad kid, because you want to use your cell phone, you're just normal, but you just can't, you know, those types of conversations. Now you know exactly what to do to succeed. So for example, I'm going to give you a little story about Cole, and I'm not changing names. So Cole was a sixth grader, he wasn't in my class, he was in another teacher's class. And often when we would go out to, you know, change, go to specialists, or go to lunch or whatnot, he's sitting outside in the hallway. So I knew that he had trouble with behaviours. At one point, we went to a camp, and I pulled him to the side, I saw what he was doing, he's just blurting out just not paying attention. So I pulled them to the side, and I said, you know, what Cole, when your teachers talking or when anybody's talking to you, all you need to do is look at them and not see anything. And he said, Oh, for the first time, like his heart, opened his eyes open his brain open, he said, that's all I have to do. We made it very concrete. And he was empowered to succeed from there, because he knew with clarity, what the steps were for success, and that's empowerment, when you give them the tools Exactly. And they know with clarity that that's how you do it. So when we have that in front of us, we want to behave, we want to find that success. Because one of our foundational beliefs, we have 12. Students want to succeed, they want to, they don't wake up in the morning saying, I am going to mess up my teacher's life today. They go, I want to succeed today. And when we are clear, and we care about them, we change the trajectory for their day, or for their career or for their lifetime, right? Because we are giving them the tools that they need to be successful. And when we do that, of course, they're going to want to behave.

Simon Currigan: 25:00

It sounds like they work together to produce what you started talking about at the start of the interview, which is relationships.

Pamela Tseu: 25:06

Yes, it starts with relationships. But I always have to warn us that it's not all about that, because we are really good at relationships. I think all teachers know that that's important. But that's not all because I feel like when we have relationships with the students, we take them halfway. But now they're like, okay, what's next? I know, I want to do what you want me to do, but what is it that you want me to do? And so when we're not clear about that, then they keep making mistakes. And although they know that we still care about them, that's still not good enough for them because we want to set them up for success, right? So we need to be clear and teach them clearly and I think an important tool that we didn't talk about, but when we don't have to but A big part of the success of this is the five steps of teaching expectations with exactness. That is the key, because that's one of the reasons that this is different is how we teach behaviours. And that makes all the difference in the world for them, because for once it's concrete. And they're able to learn it with exactness. So the five steps will be the first one is the rationale. Why is it important that we do this? For example, it's just take paying attention to the speaker, why is it important that we pay attention to whoever is speaking to us, whether it's the person at the store asking where you know where your cookies are? Or your parents or your teacher? Or your friend telling you a juicy story? Why is it important? So we get that conversation going get that buy in. The second one is the criteria that we as teachers have determined, for example, for me, it's quiet voice looking at the speaker and quiet body. And again, we teach all of those, it's a 15 minute lesson on average for me, just because I know how to teach and I fine tuned my lesson. So those are the criteria. And then the next two steps are extremely important, because these are how the brain works in terms of collecting data collecting information, the third step is discussing and bringing to our attention. What did we do wrong, do not do this? And what is that running around the room acting like a crazy person, you know, don't do that. But the fourth step is almost, but not quite what is almost, but not quite behaviours. And what we just did was we this is perfect. This is not perfect. When we say almost, but not quite, we've just narrowed the parameters, the difference between acknowledging what is almost but not quite brings exactness to their minds, because they're like, okay, that's not okay. Either. We acknowledge and put in our brains what's not okay, that's close, but still not okay. And then the last step is the reiterating what's correct. And then just like any other lesson, the next day, you probably have to re teach that just a little bit. And then the next day, the next day, and for little Johnny that struggles with this behaviour, I would probably proactively, we're going to start the day Johnny walks in the class and just for him, not anybody else, because everybody else has it by now, I'll say, Hey, remember, today, we're paying attention to the speaker, quiet voice quiet body. And just looking. You think you can do that? Yeah, okay, perfect. We set them up for success. So it's that continuous teaching differentiating for the students. And that's the difference of how we do that. Now, there's a lot more to that, in terms of the exercises of how to come up with your own criteria, how to be specific, the wording, those are extremely important, too. But that is the basic framework for that teaching.

Simon Currigan: 28:11

If you're a teacher, or a school leader, listening to this podcast, and you're working with a class that presents behaviour challenges, what's the first practical step you can take today, that will make a real difference in the

Pamela Tseu: 28:21

And this may sound very theoretical and classroom. philosophical, but I would definitely start with the care component tool, we have to build relationships, because if we don't have the relationships there, then all the other tools sound harsh or fall on deaf ears, right? Sometimes even take the step back, as I've worked with teachers and jumped in in the middle of the year and take a step back, build relationships, they have to learn to trust that you actually care about them. And that you're not doing this just because you want them to do something for you. So take a step back. And that may look like you letting them do whatever they want. But you know, we know, we all know that you're getting to the behaviours that you want. I would also step back and start again, teaching expectations with exactness, teach it to everybody. So your student that you're trying to address misbehaviors with don't feel like it's just pointed at them. So why would the next day say hey, we're kind of all losing it, we need to work together. Let's talk about paying attention to the speaker. What do you think it's, you know, and you teach it to everybody, so that, like I said, it's not a punishment for a few students. So it's that community and that pre teaching, we just take a step back and give that respect and that care and that fairness to everybody.

Simon Currigan: 29:26

we've only scratched the surface about your system for improving classroom management, how can our listeners find out more about the other five tools and your other behaviour support resources,

Pamela Tseu: 29:35

there's only so much we can learn in an interview, I would love for your listeners to go to my website. And on the website, the best best best way is to not only learn about all the seven tools, but how to use them. We have a course called become an ace in classroom management in 45 days, it's 45 lessons that are 20 to 30 minutes that I would love to give to your listeners for 20% off, can we put a link in your show notes that teachers can get that?

Simon Currigan: 30:03

Yeah, sure, absolutely. We'll make sure it's in the show description. So if you open the podcast app and have a look at the show description, you will see a direct link there with instructions of how to get your discount.

Pamela Tseu: 30:13

Awesome. So I'd like to give your listeners a discount because I think that's the best way to actually utilise these tools and the system and to learn how the system works together. And on the website, you'll see other tools of course, on the website is where you will find more of the things that are upcoming such as I'm coming up with a book. I do give teacher retreats, which are really fun because we embed the preparing yourself tool which is self care. And we can all agree that self care is really important to being a good classroom manager. So we embed all of those fun retreat type things and teach you how to to actually use that tool in the retreat, I also have a podcast we read learn about teachers from all over the world does your everyday teacher heroes making a difference. And classroom management is an issue all over the world, same kids are kids. But the beauty of this is that humans are humans and the desire to connect heart to heart to be able to rationalise, those are all universal human being qualities that we work towards with these tools, I would love to offer free training as I do that on my Instagram account, daily training, we pick a tool a day, so join me there, as well as on Facebook, we have an art of customer management, we have live sessions where we hash out these tools and how to actually use them, as well as talk about a lot of interesting topics on our Facebook.

Simon Currigan: 31:25

Pamela, last question, Who is the key figure that's influenced you? Or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach,

Pamela Tseu: 31:34

I'm a person that lives life to the beat of my own drum. And that's a good thing and a bad thing. So to pinpoint one book or one influence is really hard for me, because I feel like just in life in my years, I'm just a sponge. So I don't really have one book, or one leader in the industry that I want to put any emphasis on. But I love this quote from Albert Einstein, and this is what drives my purpose. And he says, if people are good, only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are sorry, lot indeed. And we don't want to be that we don't want our next generation to be motivated by a fear of punishment, or that they hope for something for themselves. We want them to do good, because it's the right thing to do. And that's what drives what I do and what drives what I hope to help for the profession and to make classrooms better for everyone.

Simon Currigan: 32:26

Hello, I think that thought is the perfect place to finish the interview. You've been very generous with your time and your experience. Thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Pamela Tseu: 32:34

Thank you so much. It's been wonderful. You're great.

Emma Shackleton: 32:38

Wow, I really enjoyed that episode, Pamela is so full of helpful practical advice that we can take away and start using straightaway.

Simon Currigan: 32:47

And don't forget, if you want to know more about Pamela's resources, and direct link to her training with a discount, I've put that in the show description. Her website is super helpful. By the way with lots of useful information.

Emma Shackleton: 33:00

We've also got a guide to supporting with classroom management called imaginatively the classroom management score sheet. Inside the score sheet you'll find a list of 37 factors that have a direct impact on classroom management. It's perfect for finding specific action points for improving whole class behaviour.

Simon Currigan: 33:20

Get it now by going to www.beaconschoolsupport.co.uk clicking on the free resources option in the menu, and you'll find it near the top of the page. It's completely free and get it today. And I'll also drop a direct link in the episode description.

Emma Shackleton: 33:36

In next week's episode, we're going to be looking at relational aggression, sometimes called the Mean Girls syndrome. This is a subject that actually impacts on the emotional well being of girls and boys. And we'll be letting you know what it is and how to support the students in your school.

Simon Currigan: 33:55

So make sure you hear that episode. Well. You could train a pigeon to fly out to school behaviour secrets HQ and collect a handwritten copy of the podcast notes in its tiny beak the moment it's released, or you could whip out your phone and click the subscribe button in your podcast app. And I think in Apple podcast, that button has now been renamed to follow rather than subscribe, whatever it says press it now and your app will automatically download future episodes without you having to think about it so you'll never miss a thing.

Emma Shackleton: 34:24

And finally, if you know somebody who you think would find today's interview helpful, spread the love by sending them a link to this podcast. In most podcast apps, you can do that by clicking on the share button next to this episode. just sharing this episode with one or two colleagues could have a positive impact on their lives and the lives of their pupils.

Simon Currigan: 34:46

That's all for today. Hope you have a great week and we'll see you on the next episode of school behaviour secrets. Bye now.

Emma Shackleton: 34:52

Bye